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Originally Posted by Nereid
Restricted to the topic of this thread alone, and to the ATM claims, as presented (by rtomes), in this thread.
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Post #250:
What is the size of the dataset (number of independent galaxy redshifts) used in paper 1? How many of the galaxies in the dataset used in paper 1 are dwarf galaxies?
Ditto, paper 2?
Ditto, paper 3?
Ditto, paper 4?
Ditto, paper 6?
Ditto, paper 7?
More generally, what is the composition of the datasets, in each paper, by type of galaxy?
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All of the dataset sizes are listed in the papers themselves. So these are not really questions. They are attempts to undermine the significance of the work. The simple fact is that tests for statistical significance fully take account of the sample size. If a smaller sample size is used, then a stronger periodicity must be present to get the same level of significance. So that simply proves how strong these periodicities are that they can be consistently detected in small samples.
Although it is relevant to the results what type of galaxies are in the sample, it is not important. I will explain that.
When larger galaxy types only are included then larger quanta are found such as the 72 km/s one. When smaller galaxies are included then the smaller quanta are found as well as the larger. This is made clear by Tifft in his papers and also is consistent with the expectations of Harmonics theory. So whatever types are included one or more periodicities will be found. It is still advisable in future research to examine the periodicities by galaxy type so that thee details of these matters are better understood.
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Comment: these questions go to the heart of the ATM claim presented in this thread. It is a claim that has been made repeatedly; post #223 contains the eight papers used to support that claim, and post #228 contains the first set of questions on that claim (and those papers). Post #238 is rtomes' response to those questions.
The general issue of consistency - sampling of galaxies, analysis of observations, methods used to detect and estimate periods, etc - and of how uncertainty (in estimates of selection effects, in derived values, etc) and systematic errors should be properly handled in statistical analyses intended to show redshift periods has not been adequately addressed by rtomes. This failure may be due in part to a profound misunderstanding of what a 'galaxy redshift' is, how it is derived, and what astronomical observations are used as inputs (see, for example, this - rtomes is apparently ignorant of the use of H I radio observations by Croasdale, to take just one example).
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I am fully aware of the use of H I radio observations to measure redshifts. Tifft used these measures to get accurate redshifts in the 1970s.
Your little game with asking silly irrelevant questions to try and find things that I do not know so that you can criticize them is quite irrelevant. There is no need for me to be able to carry out a redshift measurement. All the redshift measurements used in the surveys were taken by astronomers. I am not and astronomer. Your logic on this is inexcusably poor. It would seem that it is a desperate attempt to evade the true conclusions of this research.
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Another reason why this is important: rtomes has stated, very clearly, many times, that she sees 'quantized redshifts' as evidence to support her broader ATM idea (HT). In HT, there is no necessary relationship between the objects which are at various locations (in an appropriate space) and astronomical objects (such as barred spiral galaxies). Thus failure to establish consistency weakens both the empirical claim (which is what this thread is about) and the theoretical one (which, presumably, rtomes cares much more about).
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Your referring to me with words "she" and "her" when my photo is on hundreds of posts that you have looked at is another example of your attempt to take the conversation into the gutter rather than address the real issues.
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Post #258:
please give references, to papers (by Edward R Dewey, rtomes, or anyone else) published in relevant peer-reviewed journals, on the validity of (or applicability of) drawing smooth curves (as rtomes did) ... independently of the completeness (or lack of it), homogeneity (or lack of it), all selection effects and biases, for astronomical data.
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Edward R Dewey describes these methods in "Cycles" magazine, and the relevent material is available in the "Cycles Classic Library Collection" published by the Foundation for the Study of Cycles in 1987.
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Comment: This is just one of a number of questions about a claim rtomes made first here. The method she used to make the conclusion about a "4330 km/s periodicity" seems to depend upon the validity of 'the smooth curve' she superimposed on the chart (there are some other unanswered questions on this, see below); crudely, unless she can show that the curve she drew has validity for the particular astronomical inputs to the chart, then she cannot claim any validity for the conclusion she drew from it.
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I have stated that the curve is not relevant, the peaks are there without it. I also posted a further graphic based on first differences which shows the periodicity clearly. First differences is effectively differentiation and enhances higher frequency components in a spectrum. Because any selection effects are lower frequency (they have few inflexion points) this method is effective.
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Post #259:
Please list all the effects which affect the detectability of a GRB in a waveband where its redshift can be observed. Please identify which effects are based on models of GRBs, which on waveband-redshift detectability, and others.
I want to be quite clear on this ... are you claiming that there is a model-independent* statistically significant "delta z=.131 periodicity" in the redshift data of these 26 GRBs?
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Why don't you list them. Then I will prove that none of them can cause a periodicity.
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*Selection effects are models.
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Comment: rtomes claimed that a paper reporting an analysis for 26 GRBs showed "periodicity in this data", and stated that she will "report this [analysis showing periodicity] separately". That "report" has not yet appeared.
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Post #268:
Please present an appropriate quantitative analysis of the data in "the graph with the green peaks marked".
In the absence of any such analysis, please state how "significant periodicity" can be determined?
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Comment: This refers to the claim rtomes first made in post #193. In post #263, she very strongly asserted that "the data presented shows a periodicity in the vicinity of 4330 km/s". While rtomes is, perhaps, one of the most numerate of ATMers BAUT has seen, and she claims particular experience with statistical analysis, it seems the critical importance of establishing the validity of the method used to produce "a periodicity in the vicinity of 4330 km/s" conclusion, let alone the need to present quantitative results of any periodicity analysis, is not recognised, much less acknowledged. This is an especially puzzling (apparent) failing, given that properly handling selection effects is one of the most difficult aspects of extra-galactic astronomy.
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Post #269:
Please provide a detailed analysis of Tifft's methods, with direct reference to standard texts on statistics, to support your claim.
In which paper, by Dewey, published in a relevant peer-reviewed journal, is the applicability of the method you used to draw the 'smooth curve' presented?
In your analysis, which you claim shows a 4330 km/s periodicity, how did you take account of the authors explicit characterisation of the data base?
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You have the papers of Tiffts as references because you did not believe my statements and wanted peer reviewed material. Now read it!
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Comment: More unanswered questions on the "4330 km/s periodicity". rtomes', in post #270, and post #275 seems to have attempted to address one part of one of these questions (selection effects). The second of these clearly demonstrates a command of math that is highly unusual for an ATMer; however, it also shows a profound ignorance of, or misunderstand of, the inputs.
Aside from technical aspects of the analysis - which are serious enough - she seems to be completely blind to how the galaxies that are represented in database relate to real galaxies. This is despite the fact that Giovanelli and Haynes make it very clear exactly what they expect these galaxies are a sample of ("a sample [of galaxies] with a limiting magnitude of mpg ~15, and a depth of about 75 h-1 Mpc"). So, given that the Malmquist bias is well-known in astronomy, given that galaxies are found in groups and clusters (of a range of sizes), given that the zone of avoidance introduces strong biases in any volume-limited sample (of optically selected galaxies), ... even if a statistically significant period can be extracted, it tells you nothing about the (population) properties of galaxies within ~ 100 Mpc of the Milky Way ... unless you can correct for all of these.
Now claiming that this particular dataset shows "a periodicity in the vicinity of 4330 km/s" is one thing; claiming that this is evidence of "a regular periodicity of 4330 km/s as predicted by the Harmonics theory" (as rtomes did in post #193) is quite another.
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You apparently missed the other references to a similar period in the papers. Go back and look for 41.5/h Mpc which was reported. This period is visible in every decent sized sample. You can see it in the Broadhurst data along with other fractions of 12,800 km/s.
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Throughout this thread, this apparent blindness to the need to rigourously address this gap - and so even acknowledge the need to even look at selection effects - is evident.
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The facts remain:
1. Every paper that has been published that has sufficently accurate data (as described by Tifft) and looks for smaller scale redshift periodicity in galaxies has found at least one of the quanta 72, 36, 24, 12 km/s and often more than one. There have been many replications and not a single negative result. This is called the scientific method and criticizing sample sizes is not an adequate response because different samples have been used by different researchers.
2. Papers that use the correlation function in 3D do not show these shorter period variations. That proves that they are not spatial structures and that the interpretation of redshift as totally a velocity measurement is wrong.
3. Most papers that have looked at large scale periodicity have found the 12,800 km/s period (z=.043 or 128/h Mpc) and often fractions of this also (1/2 and 1/3). These periods are found using either redshift periodicity or looking for 3D spacings. There are papers that I referenced showing the clear 3D structure as a type of lattice.
4. A number of studies have been performed in special frames to investigate the whole sky synchronization of smaller scale (~72 km/s) redshift periodicities. All published studies confirm the presence of such frames. New data continues to support that conclusion. This totally undermines the conventional interpretation of redshift. If it were correct then the whole universe would be a huge conspiracy to make the centre of our galaxy a very special place. I don't think that anyone believes that.
5. The inescapable conclusion is that Arp and Narlikar are right and that these 72 km/s and such periodicities are changes by steps in redshift over time, and nothing to do with distance. Because the time taken to travel a distance by light is a linear one, it just looks like a distance relationship. However at the distance scale of galaxies the relationship breaks down because there are traveling wavefronts where the redshift of a galaxy will suddenly change by 72 km/s. So you cannot use that information to calculate distances at that scale.
6. In general galaxies cannot be moving even by 20 km/s. If they were, the whole sky periodicity would be destroyed. And it is there for all to see. In fact, it would be destroyed in even galaxy pairs because of the different orientations that we see them at and the 72 km/s difference between them is prevalent.
7. The virial theorum is not a valid basis for anything because it uses the assumption that redshift measures velocity, and it clearly does not.