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Old 03-November-2007, 05:40 PM
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If it helps Lou, not all christians are as fanatical as are made out to be. Some truly believe and have studied and tend this way. Others are taken in by an emotional response to something they see as attractive and never go beyond the glowing feeling.

Some will cling fanatically to anything that supports their idea; but many understand that poorly worded arguments, papers containing mis-construed (not mis-interpreted, the connotation I'm looking for is mis-qouted or mis-used) facts, and fallacies such as "I'm going to put words in not only God's but scientists minds (read "he must be atheist, doesn't he realize...") do not make for good science. Those papers can excite some people, but fall apart in my mind long before I get to analyzing the facts.

Work out with your friend/enemy/whoever a system to determine what can be used as evidence in your debates. Let this be your common ground. Once you agree on the system, then you can start feeding stuff into it and analyzing the results. Without SOME common ground you'll be combating "but I heard..." or "but couldn't..." a LOT. While this is good for debate, it needs to be supported or you both end up sour at each other for thinking the other is too fundamentalist.

As a semi-former yec myself (I'm in the throes of leaving) this was something I had to do for myself. Once I allowed myself to look at what people on both sides were saying, I could start truly analyzing the evidence. While I've always considered myself open minded, in growing up I would read a creationist paper/book and say "great!" meanwhile glossing over wrong facts and fallacious arguments. Then I would read an evolutionary one, and even if they made a good point, usually chuck it. More on that in a moment, keep reading.

Now, this has been probably 6 years in the making. Coming to grips with letting go of something you were raised with is not easy, and to be honest I may never fully move on. Intellectually, I tell myself I need to. Logically, I read that nature reveals God, and if that's the case, it should scream not only design but young. Sure, there are whispers, but the scream is old--how old I'm not ready to conjecture, but I'm considering. Design? I can still see that, but young I have a terrible time with. It's a struggle to let go, even with as little emotion as I tend to demonstrate. (Sympathy is another thing, don't let that confuse you with what I base choices on).

Enough about me though; first you should realize you aren't going to change their mind over night, nor will you change it based on one evidence or principle. Christianity, especially fundamentallist views, tend to be an all or nothing stand. Even if a detractor shows good evidence in one point, they can be dismissed because "well, they have been shown wrong over there, so maybe they aren't correct here as well.". That is your first hurdle.

To cross this you have to go beyond introducing critical thinking. Good chance your friend has at least the foundations of that. Take time to point out fallacies first in the way the arguments are presented in various papers--feel free to include some "old earth" papers too, to show you aren't just bashing yecers. Ask if you need help figuring those out. Agree on a system you guys can use to pull the claims and facts supporting them out of the junk that is so much "science". Regardless of conclusions at this point, agree together what the meat of the argument is and get rid of the rest. Take a pen and draw lines through text if you have to. Now you can analyze the facts for what they are, as well as whatever the facts imply.



This is what got me started to where I am now. I almost feel like a traitor writing this all out, but that is part of moving on I think. Your friend may feel similarly, don't rush them! Rome wasn't built in a day.

There are three possible outcomes I see:

Either:
A) Your friend will understand there is more than one plausible scenario if the axiom of God's existence is included (He's God, who's to say what he can/can't do?). There is also the absent or non-existent God model, but that probably won't fly.

B) They will understand that their view, while emotionally appealing, is flawed. I wouldn't try to convert them to atheism right now. This one is an extension of A, and may be reached in time, but don't expect it right away.

C) The third possibility is that nothing will happen, they will continue to hold fasciously to their understanding without so much as acknowledging other possibilities. This happens sometime. This is life.


Whichever happens, they are likely to feel some guilt: that isn't your fault, nor is there anything you can do about it. It's just life. Continue to be friends and move on to other modes of social life you can both agree on and enjoy.
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