Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornblower
That motion that he induced with his finger did not simulate the torque which the planets exert on the presumably slightly oblate Sun. The way to simulate the latter would be to set the axis a few degrees off vertical and hang a small weight on the gymbal under the lower gyro bearing. That would attempt to move the axis tilt toward the vertical, and as a result the gyro would precess slowly and steadily in a conical pattern around the vertical coordinate.
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Hanging a weight off the near gimbal would be using gravity and there is one thing you and I agree on and that is in no way can a planet’s gravity exert enough force on the sun to really cause any sizable effect. As I said before what I believe is moving it is the process of the conservation of angular momentum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornblower
The fact that Jupiter and Saturn have about 85% of the total angular momentum of the solar system, and the Sun's spin accounts for only about 2%, is beside the point. That tells us nothing about the magnitude and direction of the gravitational torque the planets exert on the Sun.
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If Jupiter and Saturn were connected directly to the sun like the arms extended of an ice-skater starting a spin then when that skater brings their arms in to their side their spinning speed increases. This is the effect of the conservation of angular momentum. There are (at least) two problems with this analogy compared to the sun. The first is the planets aren’t connected to sun like the arms on a skater, but in the model on my website I show how they are connected. The second problem is the sun is so massive that the planets (even if they were connected) wouldn’t be able to speed it up like the skater moving their arms in. The question is what happens to the surplus of angular momentum? The planets are moving close to the equator of the sun and excess angular momentum will push in the direction like the guy pushing on the gyroscope and this pushing force could cause a shift in the poles of the sun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornblower
Please show us geometrically and dynamically, in a few simple steps, what it is you think I am missing.
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If you looked at the model I presented it shows what you are asking for and more. The problem is this model is different than your gravity based model and provides a structure that combines the planets into a more connected system than any model that is gravity based only (that I’ve seen). The model I presented is capable of modeling all of the strangeness of the solar dynamo, but on its own does not help with the explanation of the Maunder Minimum. This model needs to separate into two causal systems one for the normal sunspot cycle and the other for special events like the Maunder Minimum. And the physics is there to do this if the model has enough structure to convert excess angular momentum and convert it into tilt. It is the structure and how much more the planets are connected than just being held in place by gravity.
I doubt that the above paragraph is going to satisfy you and I would love to discuss it further but I don’t think doing it on JimP’s thread is the appropriate place to do it. If you want to discuss it further let me know and I will start a thread.
Jim