Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Tulip
Gillian, your comments avoid the astronomical point of my claims. There is in fact a general pattern of what I will call Gaian history with precise cycle period 2147 years. I included a link to a good picture of this Gaian temporal structure at http://www.perceptions.couk.com/precess.html This cycle has been going on since the origin of life on earth with stable structure. And, as explained in my most recent discussion, the 2147 year structure is a physical function of the relation between the outer planets and the sun – the earth is like a gyroscope in the solar system. So, the period is real, and the question is whether there is evidence for it in history. This evidence can range from exact parallels between events such as Zama and Normandy or the Western invasions of Carthage and Baghdad to much broader possible resonances. The point is that the sum of causes of historical events includes this general pattern of terrestrial time. There are some good examples in the USA/Rome comparison and some that are weaker. Because you are disposed to ignore precession as a framework of history, you focus on those I have mentioned that are weaker rather than stronger. |
And you do quite the opposite. I'm having a hard time
finding reasonable parallels, largely because the dates you've chosen as representative are off by as much as 200 years from your cycle. Further, I don't dispute the astronomical things. What I dispute is the human parallel, which you have not adequately shown. You have chosen Rome. Note that.
Chosen, because you already think there's a parallel. However, I can name you half a dozen empires
from the same continent as the US, which surely represents some sort of parallel in space, if not thought, which don't follow your cycle at all. Even if you apply them to each other. Further, as has been said, you need to go back a second cycle, and a third, in order to show connection. Oh, you can't--we don't have documentation back that far? So how do you know there's a cycle at all?
Quote:
|
Again, this is a misunderstanding. It is analogous to you saying that because snow fell first in November one year and in January the next that the cycle of the year does not exist. Of course we know the year exists. My point is that the precession has equal temporal status to the year as a structure of time. America and Rome often are in fact compared in history, through ideas such as the Pax Romana and the Pax Americana. I am simply taking this as the biggest imperial comparison between ages that exists in our world and asking if we can see parallels with phase 2147 years. In some cases these parallels are precise, in others broad.
|
I see. In other words, you can pick any date you like within 200 years or so of a comparable date, and it's close enough?
Quote:
|
America-Rome is just an example. Of course there are likely to be other parallels and the basic reason for this thread is to develop an understanding of wider world causal processes against a cosmic context. I pick on America and Rome because they have a cultural continuity and have major stark dates as world powers. The greater the cultural distance between two powers the less the causal connection. As I mentioned, the modern parallels I am noting are between the West and Ancient Rome, with some examples drawn from the USA and others from the UK and Europe. The whole modern West, unlike the Mayans, is joined to Rome by language, law, history, blood, religion, etc. Even so, there may well be deeper connections which link different parts of the world. I only raise this in response to your mention of the Mayans, who really had no direct institutional link to the USA by comparison with Rome. An example of a cross-continent comparison of the sort you seem to be asking for might well be that drawn by a respondent between Buddha and Calvin. Both codified a world folk religion, with Buddha refining Hinduism into Buddhism and Calvin refining Catholicism into Protestantism. However, as I said in response to the criticism of the comparison of Plato and Kant, I think it is easier to see the cycle of precession operating at world-historical than at individual level.
|
So what's the parallels with Ancient Greece on the same cycle? After all, the US takes at least as much of its origins from Greece as Rome--and even more from, say,
Britain and Spain. Further, really? The modern US is more tied by blood to Rome than the Mayans? Really? Despite the fact that the largest ethnic minority in the US is from the part of the world that the Mayans lived in, and a substantial minority has African roots? And while it's true that the English language takes more from Latin than Mayan, the English language takes from
everywhere. I can give you a list of Iroquois words that are only applicable to plants and animals of the US, if you like; surely, that's more directly US-related than Latin, which has influenced the language of dozens of countries.
Quote:
|
Broader world. And this is about millennial cycles which could well have decades variance in their return. You are welcome to look for connections between unconnected cultures, but I think these are less likely than between the US and Rome. With the Germany-Carthage comparison, my point is that at the same stage in both their history, having cleared the neighbourhood, the US and Rome went to war to defeat a counter-hegemon. The parallels include the broad multi-decade phase I have called ‘defensive war’ and specifics such as 202BC=1945 and 146BC=2001AD.
|
But the Mayans
aren't unconnected to the US. The Zulu and the Chinese
aren't unconnected to the US. Every major civilization in the world has influenced US history in one way or another. Further, the causes of WWI were not entirely defensive. True, Germany invaded several other countries. However,
a state of war already existed, and Germany was hardly the first power in the war. Also, you've left Austro-Hungary, a country which was a major aspect of WWI, out of your equations entirely, I can only assume because it didn't exist in WWII, which throws your "calculations" out of order. Or through sheer, demonstrable ignorance of history.
No, no. That's not a direct answer. You have chosen a specific time period. I have shown that major US republican structures were created
200 years outside it. That's 10% off. Surely that's hardly akin to winter falling on a different day. Besides,
astronomical winter begins within the same three-day period every year; the differences in weather vary from region to region, and you appear to be claiming the world entire as a region. In short, you are applying a specious argument. If you are basing your argument on astronomical data, your argument about winter cannot apply, because winter as you're defining it is not an astronomical phenomenon.