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Originally Posted by Nereid
I've read this, several times, and I'm sorry to say I still don't understand what you're saying.
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I guess what I'm really saying is that giant simulations have two main purposes-- one is to try and guarantee that the key physics is included (the "fishing net" philosophy of fishing), and the other is to try and obtain highly quantitative results when the situation is very well constrained by the physics and idealized assumptions are either not necessary or well supported in fact. But in neither case are we "finished" when the simulation achieves these ends-- yet that is often how they are treated.
In the first case, the work has just begun-- we have insured that the dominant physics is present in each situation the simulation covers, but we have not yet identified what that physics is. More often than not, in my experience, giant simulations can be broken down into smaller pieces where in each subset there is actually something quite simple happening, something that does not require the full simulation to understand (though it may have required it to
find). It is often the case that in hindsight, the simple physics makes perfect sense and feels like it should have been anticipated prior to the simulation (though in practice it often is not). But my point is, if this followup analysis never occurs, as is all too often the case in the literature and at meetings, then this great promise is never actualized. Instead, people think the simulation has accomplished its goals, and nothing more is needed from it. It is a "complete" simulation-- but is it complet
ed?
In the second case, where quantitative accuracy is the motivation for the complexity of the simulation, there is no simpler subset that can achieve that end. However, we are still not done, because even when quantitative accuracy is the goal, there is still a role for approximation. One role is in anticipating how the results will vary as you change the parameters. The "kitchen sink" approach to that issue is a brute-force variation of the input parameters (a so-called "grid of models"), and then interpolate to any actual desired situation.
But a simplified approximate understanding of the dominant physics also informs the process of understanding the sensitivity to input parameters, and the inaccuracy introduced by taking that approach is well compensated by the insight gained. Once the approximate dependences are understood, one can anticipate what combination of parameters will achieve some desired end, and then a full simulation can be run for the new parameters as a final check on that prediction. But the simple fact is, astronomers are forever undertaking calculations that are more accurate in form than they are in substance-- they are grinding out that third decimal place, yet invariably some new physics discovery comes along and changes the
first decimal place. Examples are countless.
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The Millennium Simulation: huge simulation of a CDM-dominated universe, using GR, which aimed to learn something about the growth of large-scale structure (among other things). One of the many research programmes it (or rather its predecessors and previous analytic work, it just 'shrank the error bars') kicked off was a search for (an OOM more) CDM-dominated dwarf galaxies and other research into dwarfs (merger histories, starburst histories, ...).
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Granted, this is certainly a good example of how a "complete simulation" can make predictions that observers can then attempt to test, as a check on the assumptions of the simulation. But what I'm saying is, does this really complete the relationship that the theorists and observers should be having? Is it enough for theorists to say "I predict this, never mind why, you can picture this cartoon if you like, but what matters is that you look for it"? Put differently, can you tell me (in physical terms, not cartoon terms-- we get plenty of cartoons) why the Millennium Simulation produces so many dwarf galaxies? What is the key aspect of that simulation that gives you that, and once you understand that key aspect, how could you have obtained that same result without the simulation? As I said, hindsight is better than foresight, which is the main purpose of simulations if you ask me, so I'm not saying we never needed the full simulation. I'm merely saying it should not be viewed as the completed pinnacle of the theoretical effort.
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Exoplanets: do the doppler programmes qualify as elaborate simulations? After all, to find the n-th planet, you first have to nail down the parameters of the first n-1 ones!
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In some situations, the accurate quantitative analysis is all that has value, because you are not trying to understand how something is working-- you already know how it works, and you are pressing for greater and greater detailed accuracy in your model inputs. Such situations are pretty rare in astronomy! But this is indeed one.
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Also, the use of microlensing to find planets may be described as hot (and full of models), even though it gives only one shot at each planet. And what of transit searches? and the models used to infer something about the atmospheric composition of the transiting planets (once they're actually identified)?
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Transit searches are observational, I'm talking about the interaction between theorists and observers. So your last point is more relevant-- about what we can theoretically infer about the atmospheres. But this is a perfect example of what I'm talking about-- when we get information about the atmosphere of a transiting planet, do we need a giant "black box" simulation of all the things that might possibly be happening in that atmosphere? Do we really expect to be able to anticipate the possibilities so completely? I'd say we need a simplified understanding of what kinds of observed features map roughly and approximately into what general kinds of physical phenomena, long before we'll be in any position to apply meaningfully a black box simulation to making quantitative predictions (indeed we may never be in that position-- we can hardly even do that in our
own atmosphere, just witness global climate simulations).
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"Dark Energy": two teams almost simultaneously discovered a consistent trend in high-z Ia SNe data; a flurry of activity followed, much of it involving strenuous efforts to ensure 'accelerated expansion' (and 'cosmic jerk') was a consistent conclusion.
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Another perfect example of what I'm talking about. The discovery was observational, and grossly disagreed with the current best models. One did not need a gigantic "black box" simulation to tell us that
acceleration meant gravity was doing something weird! Even now when we do quantitative simulations, we are forced to use a rough treatment of dark energy, via the simplest possible equations of state we can think of. Again we're having at that third decimal place-- yet do we really think that physics 100 years from now will not have discovered something that significantly changes the entire picture of what dark energy is? Only if we are no students of history!
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Much of this effort necessarily involved elaborate models, but for me the key take-away is the robustness of the conclusion, and that robustness depends critically on (at least some) of the models being quite elaborate.
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I take a different message-- I claim that if you analyze those elaborate models, you will generally find that something much simpler actually constrains any particular observation you want to understand. It can be different for different scales and different questions, so it's nice to have it "all in one place", i.e., in the kitchen sink somewhere. But that's no reason to ignore that oftentimes physics involves a simple interaction embedded in a much more complex milieu-- and isn't it our job to find that out? We end up with less egg on our face when some new physics means the "kitchen sink" simulation is no longer reliable. (No matter, one nice things about codes is they are as easy to change as a four-day weather forecast...)
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WMAP and Planck: missions designed explicitly and specifically to study the CMB; compared to COBE the amount of modelling and number-crunching is stupendous; more important however is the combination of robustness and smarts that has gone into the 'how' of digging a cosmological signal out of the raw data (compare, for example, how COBE addressed the zodiacal light component).
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I would view these as observational details. Yes many observations require sophisticated data reduction and analysis-- but that's in an effort to isolate and separate the physics of interest, it is not necessarily part of why you did the observation in the first place-- that's usually done to try and isolate a particular physical effect that is
embedded in whatever is the complete simulation you are using. Extraction and isolation is a key element of doing physics, that's basically all I'm saying.
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Some Galaxy Zoo (GZ) findings: it seems an imbalance of clockwise vs anti-clockwise spirals, reported in some papers, is due to some bias in humans' interpretations of images; NGC3314 has approval for HST time to investigate Hanny's Voorwerp; a paper on 'blue ellipticals' will be coming out soon; 'zooites' (or 'zooties'!) found 'green peas', this is now been investigated; ... to be sure, even a dozen papers from GZ would be a drop in the bucket of astronomy/astrophysics/cosmology papers.
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This is mixing in issues about analysis of complex datasets. I am certainly not suggesting that reality is not complex-- I'm suggesting that our job is become adept at finding ways that allow us to pretend, in some isolated context, that it isn't.
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* modulo some clarifying questions; of course, I don't always agree with what you write, but it'd be pretty darn boring if I did, right?
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Right!