View Single Post
  #139 (permalink)  
Old 02-August-2008, 04:00 PM
Joe Durnavich Joe Durnavich is offline
Established Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 710
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Len Moran View Post
If we have an observer and a source that can emit (say) electrons in line with a screen separated by vacuum, landing positions will appear on the screen. We have no idea what exists in between the source and screen during this process, whatever it is is not directly accessible to us. Now just that fact for me places the whole experiment in the category of a model, i.e. we think of electrons leaving a source and hitting a screen with no direct knowledge of what is really happening in between - the picture is a simplification of what may be the underlying reality.
Yes, a model is evident here. We use flying objects as a model of the phenomena exhibited by the emitter and screen. Ken will want to restate that we use our model of flying objects as the model, but the point is that we study flying objects, and become proficient in working with them, and then treat aspects of the experiment in many of the same ways. Referring to all that simply as “our model of flying objects” is fine.

As a relevant aside, the discussion between Ken and I centers on whether there is a distinct entity, mental or otherwise, that would constitute “our model of flying objects.” Gilbert Ryle says such thinking is a category mistake. He draws an analogy to a university to illustrate:

Quote:
Gilbert Ryle, The Concept of Mind, page 16: ”A foreigner visiting Oxford or Cambridge for the first time is shown a number of colleges, libraries, playing fields, museums, scientific departments and administrative offices. He then asks 'But where is the University? I have seen where the members of the Colleges live, where the Registrar works, where the scientists experiment and the rest. But I have not yet seen the University in which reside and work the members of your University.' It has then to be explained to him that the University is not another collateral institution, some ulterior counterpart to the colleges, laboratories and offices which he has seen. The University is just the way in which all that he has already seen is organized. When they are seen and when their co-ordination is understood, the University has been seen. His mistake lay in his innocent assumption that it was correct to speak of Christ Church, the Bodleian Library, the Ashmolean Museum and the University, to speak, that is, as if 'the University' stood for an extra member of the class of which these other units are members. He was mistakenly allocating the University to the same category as that to which the other institutions belong.”
Wittgenstein might say here that “university” has a different use than college, library, museum, playing field, etc. Ken, I take it, would feel that if we speak of a university, there must be a special entity that serves as the referent of the term. He locates that entity in the mind. My position, in effect, is that there can be no special form of a building that is not the colleges, library, museum, etc. but somehow is them. Words don't always have to refer to objects, physical or otherwise. Rather, the meaning of words are found in their use. We sometimes talk of the “university” as if it were a distinct building like “the Bodleian Library,” but not always. The pattern of use of “university” is different from the use of “library.”

To relate all that back to the current discussion, much of my arguments surrounding the word “model” are similar to Ryle's discussion of the word “university.” If there is no distinct building that is the university or no distinct entity that is the model, there is nothing that “moves closer to reality” or “corresponds” or not to reality. Many philosophic issues involving “truth” dissolve once we note the metaphorical language. You asked me what the advantage of my position is, dissolving philosophical non-problems is one of them.

Getting back to the experiment, the experiment is, of course, real, as are flying objects. You seem to feel angst over not having a mechanical-type of explanation for what happens between the emitter and the screen. Another advantage of my view is that it accounts for science's success and not just its failures. (I am often one of the very few in a philosophic discussion praising our cognitive achievements while others worry that everything could be an illusion or a dream.) Let's not overlook the achievement here: People discover that they can treat emitters and phosphor screens in many of the same ways they treat flying objects. Students study flying objects and electrical equipment and the next thing you know, one young Joe Durnavich is watching Batman and Hogan's Heroes episodes at home. Suddenly, the world is a better place. Later, other talented and hard working folks come along and achieve more success by treating emitters and screens not as if there were flying objects, but as if dice were being rolled. Now a much older Joe Durnavich can watch Hogan's Heroes reruns on his DVD player and large screen rear projection TV. The world is an even better place.

Science must be set in the larger context of human achievement. When quantum mechanics replaced classical techniques, science did not get access to some reality that was previously inaccessible. The experiment was always real and accessible. The pattern of life and the resulting technology surrounding the experiment changed. We could do more than we could before.

Quote:
It places into context all our notions of particles and fields, space and time as being real enough for us, but in the context of nature itself, they are human representations of some underlying inaccessible reality.
Nobody really talks like that. A group of radio communications engineers may speak of electrical fields not to represent some underlying inaccessible reality, but to reconfigure their hardware to achieve an extra db of signal strength out of the antenna. To say that “field” must refer or represent something else is to make the category mistake described earlier in this post. Language is far more sophisticated than we may at first suppose. Words are tools that we use to achieve some end. We use a hammer to construct a building (among other tasks), but not to represent a nail. Words like “field,” “particle,” or “electron” have a use, but the use does not have to be, say, for an electron to refer to an ultra-tiny billiard-ball-like object or some other unimaginable reality. If you must find a referent of electron to put your mind at ease, look at the things and the situations people learn about electrons from in the first place. There is no one thing you can put your finger on that is the “electron,” but after training in those circumstances, people go on to use the word “electron” to their, and our, benefit.

Notice that everything is real and accessible here. Science takes what is accessible, what is within reach, and shows us how to make the best use of it. Just because a driver may not understand the “underlying mechanism” of his car's engine does not make his driving somehow unreal nor does it mean he does not drive anywhere. It means that he cannot do some things that people who understand engines can. He could not repair the engine if it broke down.

Quote:
But are you really happy with this response?
If reality was really inaccessible, then it could not affect the outcome of what we think or do. We need to keep reality around so that being wrong matters, that is, so that it has real consequences.

Quote:
It seems to me that the notion of mind independent reality gives a context to the way we represent nature in terms of having this "bottom line" of reality - out of reach, but none the less real.
Yes, it can serve that illustrative purpose, but note that in real life, you probably never speak of “inaccessible mind independent reality.” Philosophers may talk like that, but us normal people say, “That's wrong. Let me show you how to do it.” We use the terms “right” and “wrong” as feedback to fine tune the manner in which we do things.

Quote:
I agree with what I think Ken G and (possibly) Disnfo Agent are saying in that you can choose to view science from your very holistic perspective if you wish, maybe as part of an overall personal philosophical standpoint you have with regard to our place in the world, but what real advantage does it offer? For me, it offers no advantage, it just seems to complicate the relationship we have with nature at its most fundamental level in the form of mind independent reality. I don't want to hide from that relationship, I want to acknowledge it.
I try to describe what actually occurs in the situations mentioned. I point out the intricate and complex ways we manage those situations. I point out the strategies we use such as drawing analogies and speaking metaphorically. The advantage is that I can be epistemologically optimistic. I can begin to understand why science works, not just why it fails. I can continue to talk and think like a normal person once we step away from this philosophic discussion. I don't have to tell people that “reality is inaccessible” or “you can never understand toys, but only your model of toys.” If somebody gets a train set working, I can simply congratulate them for finding the working wiring and track configuration.

Quote:
”"A statement is "weakly objective" when it implies (directly or indirectly) the notion of an observer but is of such a form (or occurs in such a context) that it implicitly claims to be true for any observer whatsoever."”

d'Espagnat is specifically here referring to outcomes that cannot be separated from the notion of an observer, thus the experiments themselves point to "something" underlying our inseparable involvement with the experiment, an underlying mechanism that is not accessible. You are right to say that QM does not provide us with any details of this underlying reality, all it can do is to offer us the notion.
Or, should we say that it points to the fact that we are intricately bound to reality. We are equally real as an emitter/screen experiment. As our physics progresses, we don't access a part of the experiment we couldn't access before. We change our lives around the experiment (although we likely change the experiment as well). We treat it differently, we create new technologies, we solve problems that we couldn't solve before.

Quote:
Hence if you were to contest this notion of mind independent reality as being pointed to by quantum mechanics, then I suppose this post becomes a little irrelevant, but what really interests me is the way in which you would reconcile a possible agreed concept of mind independent reality with your holistic perspective of science, although as I stated above, I think I have a hint of what your approach would be - out of sight, out of mind, but is that not skirting the issue to some extent?
I think saying reality is inaccessible has the opposite effect of what is intended. We do want to say that we could be wrong, but for that to have any effect, being wrong has to matter. If reality was out of reach, then being wrong wouldn't matter. It could swing at us without ever landing a punch.

The purpose of drawing an analogy to a model and an inaccessible reality behind it is not so much to say something about our access to reality, but to keep us alert for signs we are acting contrary to our goals, to caution against overconfidence, and to acknowledge the frontiers that are yet to be explored.

Last edited by Joe Durnavich; 10-August-2008 at 05:20 PM.. Reason: Minor typos: Inserted a dropped word and corrected a spelling.
Reply With Quote