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Originally Posted by Neverfly
How much of this is uncertain and how much of it is just uncertain in Your Mind?
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Originally Posted by Warren Platts View Post
Proof #1: It is uncertain whether the universe exists in 5 or 6 dimensions.
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Huh?
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Yeah, extra dimensions. See the link to the CERN guy in Van Rijn's post above, and scroll down to the bottom where he addresses the safety concerns. He seems to think extra dimensions are highly unlikely despite the fact that they've been the rage in physics for the last twenty years at least. He thinks it's less probable than no Hawking radiation, so let's rate that at 0.1% or 0.001.
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Originally Posted by NF
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Originally Posted by Warren Platts View Post
Proof #2: It is not uncertain that any mBH's produced by the LHC will have velocities less than Earth's escape velocity (this would be an unprecedented event in the history of the Earth).
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Even if they don't- it's irrelevant.
MBH's lack the necessary mass and behavior to do any kind of damage.
Currently, Cosmic rays have already done this "experiment" naturally and although most do have the velocity to escape- Not All Of Them Do Have it.
This is all ASSUMING that ANY mBH's are made.
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That's right, these are all conditional probabilities. What you do is rate each probability, and then combine them in the end to get the total probability. And let me reiterate that cosmic rays have not in fact done the "same experiment". The products of cosmic rays are 1-way affairs. Put an 8-ball on the little dot, then aim the cue ball directly at it, and shoot with all your might, and you will see what I mean. At the LHC, however, it's more like two cars getting in a high speed, direct head on. The two cars kind of fuse together, and stop moving. So any mBH's formed at the LHC will be at rest with respect to the Earth. That would be quite unprecedented were that to happen. No one disagrees with this one, so let's keep it at 90%, or 0.9
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Originally Posted by NF
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Originally Posted by Warren Platts View Post
Proof #3: It is uncertain whether Hawking radiation is a real phenomenon.
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Not very uncertain. And even IF Hawking Radiation is invalid, these MBH's, again, lack the mass to actually gobble up anything. HTis is just another of your many misconceptions.
Imagine that you are in a spacecraft name "MicroBlackHole" and you are assigned the task of running through the asteroid belt without steering and hitting as many asteroids as possible. Your minimum quota is at least ten.
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One step at a time my lad. Let's take Hawking radiation. Although the CERN guy was quick to mention that extra dimensions have never been observed, he failed to mention that Hawking radiation has never been observed. It is in fact controversial within the physics community. Out of a pool of 15 physicists, their probabilities ranged from 0 to 0.5. The median, however, was 2%, so let's go with that.
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Originally Posted by NF
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Originally Posted by Warren Platts View Post
Proof #4: It is uncertain whether metastable mBH's will grow exponentially.
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Actually, no it isn't. See above.
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I wish you were right, my friend. But in fact that part of the equation is poorly constrained. That is why they had to bring in the whole neutron star/white dwarf argument. The laws of physics--as they are known now-- cannot constrain the growth of mBH's. They might not grow; but then again they just might. I called it a coin flip myself, because I specifically want to choose conservative, worst case scenarios, because after all Mother Earth is at stake. But we can put a fairly low probability on it if you want. How about 2%--the same as Hawking radiation.
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Originally Posted by NF
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Originally Posted by Warren Platts View Post
Proof #5: It is uncertain whether the extrapolation of the semiclassical approximation to the behavior of multidimensional mBH's deep within the quantum gravitational realm is valid.
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Actually no it isn't. It may be in your mind and lack of understanding though.
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Again, I wish you were correct. However, you may at least take comfort in the thought that this is not my original idea (well actually I've got that backwards, don't I). The fact is, we have no empirical evidence of what the quantum gravitational regime is like. This was pointed out in Plaga's paper (sec. 5) and was not discussed at all by M &G's rebuttal, because M&G admitted as much in their first paper, when they said that they did not use "worst case" assumptions for every uncertainty. This is the big one here. The
worst case scenario is that the semiclassical approximation breaks down for multidimensional mBH's deep within the quantum gravitational regime and that cosmic ray produced mBH's will pass harmlessly through both the Earth as well as neutron stars and white dwarfs. Moreover, the CERN guy says that the most unlikely possibility is that we exist in 5 or 6 dimensions, so we need a higher probability than we chose for #1, so how about 1/2 of a percent that maybe such an extrapolation is unwarranted by the eventual empirical facts that we do not yet have in hand. So that would be 0.005.
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Originally Posted by NF
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Originally Posted by Warren Platts View Post
Proof #6: When the chain of events that would have to happen to destroy the world is looked at link-by-link, there is no single showstopper that can prevent the world from being destroyed.
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There is a great multitude of showstoppers with each point you make. In other words- your supposed uncertainties are not really uncertainties.
It's far more likely that they reinforce eachother as a matter of fact.
Given one factor of odds, then add in another factor of odds- in which the odds are 1/a much much much much much bigger number than a trillion (like you tried using trillion out of one before)and the chain of events has to be in the ONE each time- in a line- one after another- throughout the entire chain- in which you then have a Big Fat Maybe.
Sounds the same as your burrito fart to me.
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You are quite correct that each of the uncertainties reinforce each other so when combined they produce a probability much smaller than any single one of them. So shall we?
Probability of World Destruction = 0.001 x 0.9 x 0.02 x 0.02 x 0.005 = 0.0000000018
So our total probability is about 2 out of 1 billion. So you can see how each of the probabilities reinforced each other to come up with the tiny total probability. And you were also correct in your earlier post that drew attention to important disanalogies between lotteries and the kind of probability we are dealing with here. The probability that Mother Earth will die because of the LHC is not a statistical probability like lotteries, or even repeatable disasters in nature like hurricanes and floods. Rather, it's a subjective, Bayesian probability; it's more of a bet, really. It's more like what the British oddsmakers do. Like betting on whether Sarah Palin will be President in 2016. (BTW, they had her in 2nd place right behind Romney, though most people had never heard of her, so this process works when many people pool their subjective probabilities. Stock markets are based on the same principle.) What it really represents are the odds you would demand if you took the other side of the bet and bet on world destruction. That is, if you bet $1 USD that the world will be destroyed within the next twenty years because of an LHC induced mBH (assuming of course that you had a nice condo on the Moon so you could survive to collect the bet), then you should get paid $1.8 billion USD for the $1 USD you put up. What's going to happen is going to happen. Mother Earth will either live or she will die. There are no statistical ifs, ands, nor buts about it.
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Originally Posted by nf
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Originally Posted by Warren Platts View Post
Corollary: When the subjective probabilities for each event are multiplied, the product is a much, much greater number than the probability that a burrito in a microwave will destroy Mother Earth.
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Wrong.
It's much much much much lower. See above.
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Once again, I wish you were right my friend, but there's no way you can equate a 2 in 1 billion probability with the probability that a burrito in a microwave will destroy the planet.
Now you calculate the net expected utility by multiplying the probability of destruction by the value of the Earth. Assuming the Earth is worth $10
100 USD:
1.8 x 10-9 x $10100 = $1.8 x 1091 USD
So to make it worth it, the benefit of the LHC should be greater than $1.8 x 10
91 USD. Do you think it will?