I'm sorry but this just takes the cake. I've got to protest this one.
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Originally Posted by Antoniseb
Warren Platts is proudly American which in many circles is seen as a good thing. Here, however, it can sometimes be very off-putting to our members from anywhere but... So, he has been suspended for a week, as a reminder about the 'no politics' rule.
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Originally Posted by Warren Platts
... Really the best thing for the world civilization as a whole would be for the USA to claim the entire Moon as sovereign US territory....
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This is inflammatory politics. Please do not respond to this.
Post Edit: There was a question about what specifically was wrong with Warren Platts' post above that got him suspended. ...
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Yeah, no kidding, because discussing space politics is specifically
not a violation of the rules:
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12. Politics & Religion
Due to the contentious nature of these subjects, forum participants are strongly advised to avoid discussing religious and political issues. Please don't begin or contribute to a topic that's merely going to incite or fuel a flame war.
However, the following exceptions apply:
A) Political impact upon space programs, exploration, and science.
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But I wouldn't blame a newbie reading the very same thread for coming up with the
opposite conclusion!
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Originally Posted by Name Withheld
A great many of these bad people were a result of our meddling in their politics or, in many cases, our puppets (the US has installed and/or supported no less than 23 dictators in the last 50 years).
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Which has absolutely no bearing on the other half of the bad guys... Or on the justification behind us installing/supporting dictators (there's usually a reason tied to long-term economic protection or gain behind these moves).
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The majority of these guys are a result of this. Take for example Iran, in the 1950's the CIA overthrew the democratically elected government and installed the Shah (lookup Operation Ajax), one of the most brutal dictators in the 20th century until he was overthrown by a popular revolution. The anti-american stance in Iran now is a direct result of this, as is all the trouble they cause in the Middle East. None of this would have happened if we didn't interfere.
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Well, there are other differences besides the fact that my post has to do with space politics, and the other does not:
- my post is pro-American and on topic, whereas the other post consists of off topic, gratutous America-bashing;
- I wrote my post, and someone else wrote the other post.
Antoniseb was an active participant in that thread, and my post was sandwiched in between the above, so he must have read that. Yet, surely it's the case that non-space related, off topic America-bashing is a violoation of the no politics rule. Therefore,
that cannot be the reason I was singled out.
Well, the mere rules have never stopped a moderator from doing whatever he or she
really wants to do. E.g., that CT thread where I initially got banned for smugness, but since smugness per se is not against the rules the mods were tripping over each other generating about 20 different post hoc justifications. Actually, I'll admit there was a grain of truth to one or two of those justifications, but those justifications were not the
real reasons. The real reason was what
ToSeek said it was: smugness. So true to form "Forming opinions as we speak"
Antoniseb came up with a different, post hoc justification:
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Originally Posted by Antoniseb
Normally we'd address something like that in the About BAUT section. A simple way to think about it is this. "Did the post seem like it is looking for a fight?" This post was brought to our attention by multiple alerts.[/COLOR]
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First of all, what does multiple mean? 2 or 3? And what is its relevance? Since when was bautforum.com a democracy?
Actually, never mind. But for the record, I was
not "looking for a fight".
Antoniseb, instead of trying to read my mind, you could have just asked me. You could have said "Hey Warren, are you looking for a fight?"
And I would have said I was merely responding to people above who in one breath were complaining about high military budgets on the one hand, and the slow pace of lunar exploration on the other. Thus I pointed out a simple solution to the conundrum: get the military into the act. But of course the only strategic goal worthy of the military would be the traditional military task of establishing use and occupation in order to defend a claim of national sovereignty.
I would have said the idea that the world would be better off as a result was not mine originally: USAF General Homer Bouchey said the same thing in the 1950's.
And I would have asked anyone interested to indulge in a little counterfactual speculation and consider an alternate history wherein the USA did not sign the OST, but instead followed through on its original plan to claim the Moon (Yes, that was the original justification cf. Space Review
Pt I and
Pt II). What would the world be like?
- There would have been a continuous human presence on the Moon since the 1970's;
- lunar geology, and by extension the early history of Earth and the entire Solar System would have been revolutionized;
- we would know where valuable mineral deposits could be found;
- there would be entire journals dedicated to nothing but lunar geology;
- there would be an infrastructure in place now capable of routine flights to the Moon at least as often as they now go the ISS;
super-rich space tourists would be walking on the Moon;
the Moon would be American territory in perpetuity.
Now, I can understand why many people would consider the above scenario to be a worse situation than the present situation of no one at all on the Moon for 50 years or more. But surely it's not the case that the opposite opinion is so morally and repugnantly beyond the pale that it cannot be discussed at all! It's not as if I seriously proposed solving the world's overpopulation problem through nuclear genocide.
That would rightly engender legitimate righteous indignation. The problem is that some people can't tell the difference between legitimate righteous indignation and the normal annoyance that happens whenever educated people reach an honest, if disagreable, impasse.
Take for example this post:
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Originally Posted by antoniseb
I don't mind if the big delay is in going to the Moon. That's much better than delaying the robotic space astronomy and planetary probes. . . .
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I'm a geologist by training (among other things), so when I read posts like that, it makes me
feel upset. What is lunar geology (and by extension the early history of the Earth and the Solar System)? Chopped liver? If robotic probes are so wonderful, why haven't we sent any rovers to the Moon? Could it be that there is absolutely nothing that a rover could accomplish no matter how many thousands of days it lasts that a handful of test pilots didn't accomplish 40 years ago in a few days? It makes me
feel tempted to yell:
WHO ARE YOU TO DICTATE RESEARCH PRIORITIES WHEN YOU OBVIOUSLY DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT! It makes me
feel indignant. It
seems as if
Antoniseb is looking for a fight.
But then the rational part of my brain says "Simmer down, Warren.
Antoniseb is entitled to his opinion. It's not as if he is advocating solving the world's overpopulation problem through nuclear genocide. It's probably best not to respond. That horse has been beat to death a thousand times before anyway. You're just going to have to agree to disagree. Just move on."
The thing is, that the Moon ought to be considered
terra nullius rather than
res communis has been discussed multiple times in this forum before. Here is an excerpt from my very first post at bautforum.com:
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Originally Posted by Warren Platts
How to Colonize the Moon without breaking NASA's budget
Simple, we take the project away from NASA and give it to the Air Force instead. . . .
The OST is inherently unfair to the nation that spent the treasury and blood to get there first—the USA. We planted the American flag there in several places. Therefore, the whole Moon is American territory. . . . If anyone lands on the Moon without American permission, their astronauts will be captured and sent back to Earth in handcuffs. . . .
The Chinese, Russians, Iranians and the French will howl, but when faced with the fait accompli, there will be little that they will be able to do about it. In any case, any program that accelerates the project lunar should be seen correctly as in everyone's best interests.
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There, the very same idea I just got banned for. And guess who the first person to welcome me to bautforum.com was.
Yep:
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Originally Posted by antoniseb
Hi Warren Platts, welcome to the BAUT forum. . . .
BTW, we have rules against political discussions, but the one exception is space related politics, and the OST is right in the middle of that category.(my emphasis)
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So what has changed?
- The rules haven't changed;
- the idea hasn't changed;
- I haven't changed.
So I guess I must be on some sort of double secret probation. Secret because I haven't been notified that I'm on the dump list, and it's double secret in that I'm being held to rules that aren't written down anywhere. Basically, I'm being singled out, that's not fair, and it's really hurt my feelings!