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Originally Posted by IsaacKuo
I don't understand what is such a big deal for you. I have repeatedly said I'm perfectly willing to use whatever version you want.
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There are NO other versions of Fermi's paradox. There is only one. I dont know why you keep insisting there are other versions. If there are, show me.
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It's just that there are only two possibilities--either interstellar travel is possible or it isn't. And as I explained, if interstellar travel is possible then that's an easy answer to the Fermi paradox. If interstellar travel is possible, then the easy answer to the Fermi paradox is that there's already ONE dominant galactic civilization, and we just don't notice them because they're not in our face.
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You seem to think that with travel, its inevitable that one civilization has taken over the
entire galaxy and suppressed anyone else from contacting us. WHile this is a possibility, IMHO it is by far the least likely. That seems a vast oversimplification based on no data, or pure speculation.
If Interstellar travel is possible, there could be many reasons why we haven't heard from them:
1. The Zoo Hypothesis (quarantine til we get out there by ourselves)
2. Prime Directive (They are forbidden by some law)
3. They are all machine intelligences and and don't consider us worthwhile.
4. They havent found us yet.
5. They are scared of us.
6. They dont want to scare us.
7. They arent driven by the same human need for exploration or contact as we are.
8. They know about David Hasselhoff. (self explanatory)
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You seem to honestly believe that the other possibility--interstellar travel is impossible--is an "answer" to the Fermi paradox.
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I dont know the answer to Fermi's paradox. If Interstellar travel is not possible, then that would be part, but not all of the equation.
without travel, there are other ways for them to contact us, yet they havent. you seem to think that when Fermi said "Where are they" he was explicitly asking why they weren't here,
physically, ie they travelled here to Earth. He was asking why we have no
evidence: Radio contact, artifacts, telescopic observations of Dyson Spheres, FTL tracks, and any other evidence that would allow us to conclude that there are other life forms. You seem to be hung up on Physical Contact. Even if there is a big meany civiliation suppressing everyone from coming here, could they really supress their ability to communicate? That seems a very far fetched scenario.
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So if one is an answer, and the other is also an answer, and there are no other possibilities, then voila! Only two answers.
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SO first you argue I am saying there is only two answers and I corrected you. Now you are arguing that there are only two answers. wow. your argument is truly dizzying.
At any rate, Nope. The answer will not be as simple as that. whether or not Interstellar travel is possible is only
part of the answer, whatever it is.
Lack of Interstellar travel doesnt mean we would never hear from them, it would just mean we wouldnt meet them personally, unless they sent their DNA to be reproduced, as in
Species.
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But here's the thing--traditionally, interstellar travel is impossible is NOT an "answer" to the Fermi paradox. It's pretty much the basis of the paradox! If interstellar travel is impossible, then that means that all those zillions of star systems out there are free to independently evolve and they're free to transmit radio messages to us. There's nothing stopping them.
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I dont see how interstellar travel is the Basis for the paradox. The paradox is just a statement and a question: Aliens Should have been detected by now! Where Are They?
Assume Interstellar travel is impossible. Contact is still possible by:
1. Exchange radio signals or some type of sublight communication.
2. send robotic probes, or Von Neumann Machines.
3. Solar signalling (structures to periodically block the sun to tramsmit a beacon. )
4. Spectroscopy - alter the atmosphere of a planet with artificial elements to show that life is present.
5. Use of some communcation method undiscovered by humans.
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The point is, if there are millions of civilizations out there, then it's not enough that there may only be, say, a 1% chance that a civilization wants to contact other civilizations. If there are millions of them out there, then that still means thousands of chatty civilizations out there. Why haven't we been contacted yet?
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Congratulations. You just re-stated Fermi's Paradox.
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Lack of interstellar travel isn't an "answer", it's the very starting point of the mystery.
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it is
part of a possible answer. we don't know the answer. With Interstellar Travel possible, then that narrows the possible answers. Without it, it narrows it another way. Still many many answers out there using both scenarios.
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Fermi's paradox doesn't consider the most obvious possibility of interstellar travel. I'll repeat it once more, for you:
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I'll repeat it for you: A Paradox is a question. It doesnt assume or consider. Fermi was asking why we havent seen evidence yet. Period.