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Originally Posted by Evan
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Not sure what you're saying; Jerry isn't trying to confuse us, he's looking for constructive criticism. Other than Occam's razor, nobody has poked any real holes--a specific counter example or calculation error--in his basic idea yet.
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Huh? He has the supposed Gee constant backward. .
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No, I placed a negative coefficent in the second derivative. This is completely consistent with the acceleration of the Pioneer probes towards the sun.
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Originally Posted by Evan
What??? All orbits are elliptical. There are no circular orbits. And, there are no planar orbits either (although I'm not quite sure what you intend). Look up "evection".
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Come on! We all know the orbits of the planets are too circular to explain with simple capture scenarios and there is too much evection to explain orbital mechanics with simple condensation models. The mechanics of the solar system are up in the air.
Thanks Demigog, Tailiak and Elias. Kurcharek’s comments are very useful:
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Originally Posted by Kucharek
There were no problems with Cassini's trajectory during the Titan fly-by. If Titan would have been much denser than assumed, there would have been serious alterations to it's trajectory. But none were measured, Cassini is still on the predicted trajectory.
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If what you say is true, this is a major/minor hole in my theory. Do you know what navigational parameters they used to calculate the trajectory? Ammunition makers have equations that model ballistic properties - these models are not based upon theory, but mostly upon empirical results. I have data that suggests that Voyager II had to conduct an automated unplanned burn to keep from falling into Saturn. Are we throwing in correction factors that are based upon prior missions? Is the correction for the solar wind over or understated?
What about the pass near Jupiter, and other encounters? I am looking very, very subtle but consistant variations.
I found this about Pheobe:
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Originally Posted by http://www.stanford.edu/group/radar/sandy_reu.pdf
Conclusion
... The measured spectral width, 3646.8515 Hz, of the inbound results is fairly close to the outbound spectral width, 3784.1806 Hz.
Other than a slight difference between the measured Doppler spread of the inbound and outbound spectra, there is also some deviation between the measured and estimated rotation rate. There are several explanations for these inconsistencies.
One explanation is that the nadir latitude is not included in the model curve, but is used in calculating the rotation rate. A more accurate model curve would involve varying both x and y according to Phoebe surface properties. Another source of error would be assuming a spherical model for Phoebe. All of the equations used assume Phoebe to be a perfect sphere, which it isnot. Utilizing the correct target- body model in the formula would give a more accurate estimation for the Doppler spread and would likely correct most of the differences between the measured rotation rate and the rate estimated.
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I don't know who the “Stanford.edu” group is, but they seem to be saying Doppler shifts during the Pheobe fly-by were too great, and the rotation of Pheobe was off as well. This is exactly what I hypothesized caused the 1% discrepancy in Saturn’s rotation during Voyager II’s fly-by.
Notice that the possible causes for the Pheobe anomally are completely different form the possible causes cited for the Voyager Saturn anomally. They can both be explained as unexpected variations in acceleration.
Can anyone shed any light on this? Is this Stanford of California, Connecticut, or Kansas?
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Originally Posted by Kurcharek
And due to the high density of Titan's atmosphere, the parachutes performance is much less critical than on Mars.
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I hope so - I hope a 300% greater g force than anticipated is ok.
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Originally Posted by Taibak
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Originally Posted by Jerry
A decrease in the ‘inertial capacity’ of the system leads to an underestimate of mass. …As the mass of the system decreases, so does the apparent mass of the rocket. No, this is not Newton and Einstein, and we know it.
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Originally Posted by Taibak
Where does the mass go? If I'm following you right, a spacecraft travelling in a straight line between the Sun and Neptune should see the Sun's mass decrease and Neptune's mass increase. What happens to the Sun's mass? Where does Neptune's increased mass come from?
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Not a change in mass, a change in the ‘momental capacity’ of the spacecraft. We are used to Newton’s idea that momentum is inherent in the mass of an object and independent of the mass of nearby objects. I am hypothesizing that a quantity of electro-gravitational) field strength is necessary to sustain momentum. If the field strength is not strong enough to support the object in motion, the path the object follows changes coarse, and energy is conserved by either rotating or by radiating the excess kinetic energy - the greater the momentum, the higher the frequency of the radiation.
I think all momentum in a gravitational system is governed by the total mass, not just the mass of the object in motion. Look what is happening at the edges of galaxies: The stars have too much momentum, they should be flying farther out from the gravitational center. There are two well known theories that explain this, MOND and Dark Matter. Neither of them work all the time. I am hypothesizing that stars near the edges of galaxies do not follow the path that their inertial energy dictates because there is not a ‘strong’ enough 'electro-gravitational' path near the edges of galaxies to follow. So they stay in lower orbits, radiating the difference in energy between the orbital velocity as predicted by Newton and the observed angular momentum. This is why galaxies are radio loud. This is also why jets emitted from galactic cores stay collimated for such great lengths.
For a more local example:
assume Neptune was captured by the Sun into what started as a highly elliptical orbit elliptical orbit. But when Neptune tried to use the momentum it picked up accelerating toward the sun to return to in a highly eliptical orbit like a comet, it was only able to 'climb' into the orbit it is now in. This is where it ran out of the supportive 'electro-gravitational' field strength necessary to sustain momentum away from the solar system. The slight differential in the field effects converted some of the inertia energy of Neptune into rotational momentum, settling the planet into a nearly round orbit.
The remaining rotational energy is slowly being radiated away as thermal energy. This would explain why Neptune radiates 2.7 times more radiant energy than it receives, and why my prediction for Neptune’s density (5.765g/cc) is so much higher than the other planets (4.47g/cc).
It also explains the quirky observation that the rotational velocity of planets is proportional to the amount of excess radiation they give off, as Lunatik has pointed out. (It could even explain why Neptune is an exception to Bodes’ law: Neptune could be a recent acquisition.) Spooky, huh?
Papageno says I don’t have any evidence, when in fact I have supplied him with many observations that are consistent with this concept, such and the examples above, but also including:
The Tully-Fisher relationship: There is a relationship between the rotational velocity and the luminosity of Galaxies of similar types over a range of ~7 magnitudes - that is a factor of 600! Tully-Fisher can be explained a predictable relationship between the mass distribution and kinetic energy of each morphological type of galaxy. The kinetics at the edges of the galaxy are completely dictated by the total mass of the system.
The same thing happens with supernova: In the plane of the galaxy they can expand very rapidly, but they cannot expand nearly so quickly perpendicular to the plane of the host galaxy. The parts of the star accellerated in these directions are stopped in their tracks and emit an extremely powerful cosmic ray that last for a few minutes to hours after the explosion. This is why there is a "knee" in the cosmic ray light curve, and this explains why elliptica rings form in supernova debris that emit gamma rays whenever new matter from the core explosion reaches the ring. It explains why the Crab nebula quit expanding so soon, and why it still emits x-ray flashes.
But even if the hypothesis is wrong, when I find that a simple log/log plot reveals that Venus, Mars and Pluto, and more than a half dozen moons of the gas giants have the same density within 1% - Something systemic is involved. I would not make the numbers that close if I were making up the data, and what theory I have is based upon supernova and cosmic observations, not sitting around rolling the planetary dice until something odd popped out. This was my first roll.
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Originally Posted by Taibak
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Originally Posted by Jerry
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Originally Posted by Taibak
The six minute discrepancy between the two sets of measurements of Saturn's rotation isn't anything to get too worked up about. ...
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Sure it is...
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I still don't see the problem there. Saturn's rotational period is very difficult to measure since it doesn't have any reference points on it surface (or even a solid surface for that matter). With that in mind, I'd consider a 1% error pretty good. I'd also consider 1% to be an acceptible error in measurements of the planet's mass.
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The ESA (European Space Agency) seems to be very puzzled by it:
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Originally Posted by ESA
Gurnett said, "Although Saturn's radio rotation period has clearly shifted substantially since the Voyager measurements, I don't think any of us could conceive of any process that would cause the rotation of the entire planet to actually slow down. So it appears that there is some kind of slippage between the deep interior of the planet and the magnetic field, which controls the charged particles responsible for the radio emission." He suggests the solution may be tied to the fact that Saturn's rotational axis is nearly identical to its magnetic axis. Jupiter, with a more substantial difference between its magnetic axis and its rotational axis, shows no comparable irregularities in its radio rotation period.
"This finding is very significant. It demonstrates that the idea of a rigidly rotating magnetic field is wrong," said Dr. Alex Dessler, a senior research scientist at the University of Arizona, Tucson. In that way, the magnetic fields of gas giant planets may resemble that of the Sun. The Sun's magnetic field does not rotate uniformly. Instead, its rotation period varies with latitude. "Saturn's magnetic field has more in common with the Sun than the Earth. The measurement can be interpreted as showing that the part of Saturn's magnetic field that controls the radio emissions has moved to a higher latitude during the last two decades," said Dressler.
"I think we will be able to unravel the puzzle, but it's going to take some time," said Gurnett.
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Originally Posted by Taibak
Also, different data was used to measure the two properties. Like you said, the orbital speeds of Saturn's moons and the deflections of various probes were used to measure it's mass. You can't use those to measure its rotation.
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I am hypothesizing that since they underestimated the gravitational pull on Voyager during its closest pass, they miss-judged the amount of space Voyager traveled during one orbit of Saturn. If the magnetic forces are playing havoc with the radio waves from the surface, we should have the same problem using radar to fix the rotations of Jupiter, Uranus and the Sun.
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Originally Posted by Taibak
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Originally Posted by Jerry
Geophysicists are at a complete loss to explain Europia.
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What are they at a loss to explain?
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How an object so light can withstand the crushing forces encountered in its elliptical orbit. The shear rate upon the inner moon is enormous, especially since the rotation is slightly out of sinc with the orbit.
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Originally Posted by Taibak
...Except Voyager II observed these volcanoes directly during its Triton flyby.
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What evidence is there that is was a nitrogen volcano, and not just a normal molten lave type?
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Originally Posted by Taibak
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Originally Posted by Jerry
Dysfunctional landing pads is just the kind of thing I am looking for! Do they know the rockets shut down before it hit, or is this just a guess because they know it hit too hard? How do we know the craft was not accelerating much faster than planned, and this created enough resistive air flow to trip the pad sensors?
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How does a systems failure support your theory? All NASA seems to be saying is that something went wrong on the spacecraft.
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Every single time NASA uses a systemic explanation for what I think should be a gravitational failure, I must have a reasonable argument against NASA’s determination. Has NASA seen pictures that show a crash landing? What else do we know?
In the Global Surveyor mission, that we are told failed because of a metric/Texan unit conversion error, when you read the details that is
not precisely what happened, the
radar imaging data told the navigators the Surveyor was coming in hot, so hot they assumed that there must be an error in the radar data, so they ignored it and went instead with the estimates from acceleration calculations – estimates that we now know were off by a conversion error. But the reason the probe accelerated toward Mars at a higher than expected acceleration was explained as a “difference in the orientation of the solar panels”.
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Originally Posted by Taibak
If Bode's law had any validity, it would predict the orbit of Neptune.
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Current theory says Neptune is made up of mostly water, while the Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Pluto systems are made up mostly of lighter gases. In a condensation scenario for the solar system, the inner planets consist of higher density material and the outer planets of material of decreasing density. Water is more dense than the hydrogen and helium saturn and jupiter are suppose to be made out of. Why isn't the orbit of Neptune inside the orbit of jupiter? Until we can explain this, and why Neptune emits 2.7 x as much radiation as it receives, until we can explain how a planet made out of water generates a relatively strong magnetic field, we don’t have a workable model of the solar system.
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Originally Posted by Taibak
As for Phoebe, it's not as unstable as you think. It's big enough that it would take a massive impact to shatter it. A smaller object would gouge out a crater, but you'd need a LOT of energy to break it apart completely.
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You are probably correct, but I can’t buy into the densities measured for the moons of Uranus and Neptune.
Huygen may have enough parachute braking to survive. If there is a big discrepancy between the predicted acceleration and the observed acceleration, don’t automatically chalk it up to instrumental error or partial deployment of the parachute.
Pioneer 10 & 11 gave us a definitive test of Newtonian gravity, and Newtonian gravity failed the test. It is that simple.
And we all wonder what happens next.