View Single Post
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 09-January-2005, 07:17 PM
radioastronomer radioastronomer is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 25
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnie B.
Hi, Jigsaw,

I'll answer what I can, and leave the really hard questions to others...

First of all, movies are entertainment, not science education. Rarely do they stick very closely to scientific accuracy, especially movies like this one (which I have not seen, BTW).

Quote:
On 2002-02-23 22:50, Jigsaw wrote:
1. Stars emit FM signals? Is it plausible that he'd be the only radioastronomer in the world to think of listening on FM wavelengths? Has anybody actually checked for FM signals from outer space?
The important thing here is to distinguish FM frequencies, which are simply the part of the electromagentic spectrum between 88 and 108 MHz, from the FM modulation scheme, which is a way of encoding meaningful information (e.g. "Roll Over Beethoven") onto a carrier wave.

While stars may emit some radiation at FM frequencies (that would vary according to the type and size of the star), they would not encode any information in the form of frequency modulation.

Quote:
2. Stars emit microwaves? Don't laugh, I didn't know that.
Again, stars emit EM radiation over a wide range of frequencies; depending on the type of star there may be more or less microwave energy. I don't believe either radio or microwave energy makes up much of our sun's output.

Quote:
3. ...aren't there lots of different telescopes all listening, and wouldn't lots of other people have heard it, too, anyway, without needing to get a panicky phone call, "Hey, man, turn on your telescope, there's something really hot on 107 MHz"? ...
While any given radiotelescope may have the ability to tune into a 107MHz signal (depending on its dish characteristics and equipment), it's not the case that every scope (or even a lot of them) would be tuned to that frequency much of the time. Worse, RTs are highly directional, so the other scopes would have to be aimed at exactly the same place in the sky. This is quite unlikely unless there was some special reason for it.

Quote:
4. ... Does the military not use wavelengths like 107 MHz? Anyway, can you pick up local radio stations on, say, the Arecibo array? In the movie, they've given him a really huge dish...
The RF spectrum is divided into ranges that are assigned to various uses... like CB radio, FM radio, TV broadcast, cellular phones, etc. The military owns big chunks of the spectrum, and woe to you if you should interfere with them.

However, there's no reason that the military couldn't broadcast in the FM band if they wanted to, or accidentally if their equipment was malfunctioning.

You can be sure that radiotelescopes would be designed specifically to exclude the wavelengths used for terrestrial broadcasting... that's just annoying noise to an astronomer.

Quote:
5. ... How could they be talking if the star is 14 light years away? How long would an FM signal take to get from here to Wolf 336? Is that plausible?

You've answered your own question -- it would take a signal 14 years to get there, and another 14 years for the answer to come back. Kind of a slow process, unless you use Asimov's "back fence" method... both parties simply yak away at full speed and let the other party garner as much information as they can. After a few centuries you might actually be able to make sense out of it, and begin to ask questions and get answers.

Quote:
6. ... he goes around to all the folks in his customer service area and rearranges all their TV satellite dishes into a "phased array" and runs the thing out of his attic, with computers and stuff. Can you do that?
Sounds barely possible but unlikely. When you build a phased array you need to control the spacing between the elements very tightly. If the various dishes were randomly located, it might be possible to "crunch" the data and get useful results, but I'm dubious.

Quote:
7. ... a "cooling jacket for a low noise amp". So there's a big yellow metal tank like an oxygen tank connected to it, so I'm assuming that it's liquid nitrogen? Yes? No? Do they use liquid nitrogen for that? The kid writes his name with his fingertip in the frost on the canister-thingie, which looks like it's made of Pyrex like a beaker. Is that plausible, that a "cooling jacket" with liquid nitrogen would be made out of Pyrex? Also, wouldn't the kid's fingertip freeze?
The key element needed to be chilled in a low-noise receiver is not an amp on a shelf somewhere, but the actual detector, located at the focus of the telescope dish. In the FM band, though, there's no real need for even that, as it's far from the microwave frequencies produced by thermal radiation.

The kid's fingertip would probably be ok after a brief touch to the outside of a container of LN2, especially if it was at least minimally insulated. The frost demonstrates that it's not very well insulated, but he might get away with it.

He'd regret it if he dunked his pinkie, though.

Quote:
8. While he's demonstrating his attic equipment for the kid, he supposedly picks up a signal from Voyager 2. You can do that, in your attic, with a backyard satellite dish and a PC? Don't laugh, I didn't know that.
No. Voyager has an extremely weak transmitter and it's a long way off. No way anything less than a very large dish would be able to pick it out of the noise.
I am still learning how to reply so please be patient. :-)

Actually a small dish with a really good front end (extremely low noise figure) can recieve an amazing amount of "stuff" out there. If the dish were tuned to the correct frequency, you had the proper ephemeris, and you narrowed the reciever down to about 0.8Hz, you may be able to detect the carrier from a spacecraft such as the Voyagers.

I though I would add something about noise temperature since I briefly mentioned it:

Astronomers use temperature to represent the strength of detected radiation. Any body with a temperature above -273 deg C (approximately absolute 0) emits electromagnetic radiation (EM). This thermal radiation isn't just in the infrared but is exhibited across the entire electromagnetic spectrum. (Note: it will have a greater intensity (peak) at a specific area of the EM spectrum depending on its temperature). For example, bodies at 2000 K (Kelvin), the radiation is primarily in the infrared region and at 10000 K, the radiation is primarily in the visible light region. There is also a direct correlation between temperature and the amount of energy emitted, which is described by Planck's law.

When the temperature of a body decreases, two things happen. First, the peak shifts in the direction towards the longer wavelengths and second, it emits less radiation at all wavelengths.

This turns out to be extremely useful. When a radio astronomer looks at a particular location of the sky and exclaims that it has a noise temperature of 1500 K, he/she isn't declaring how hot the body (nebulae, etc) really is, but is providing a measurement of the strength of the radiation from the source at the observed frequency. For example, radiation from an extra solar body may be heated from a nearby source such as a star. If this body is radiating at a temperature of 500 K, it exhibits the same emissions across all frequencies that a local test source does. The calculated noise figure will be the same across all frequencies. (Note: this does not take into account other sources of radiation such as synchrotron radiation).

A problem for radio astronomers is that not only the observed source emits thermal radiation; the local environment (ground, atmosphere, etc) and the equipment (antenna, amplifiers, cables, receiver, etc) being used to make the measurements also emit thermal radiation. To accurately observe and measure the distant sources, the radio astronomer must subtract all of the local environment and detection equipment noise additions.

Back in 1963, Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson were working with a horn antenna trying to obtain the high efficiency possible for the Telstar project. This antenna was also going to be used for radio astronomy at a later date. They pointed it to a quiet part of the sky and took measurements. When they subtracted all of the known sources of noise, they found approximately 3 K left over. They worked very diligently to eliminate/describe this noise source and were unable to. This mysterious source of noise seemed to be there no matter where they pointed the antenna. What they had discovered was the microwave background produced from the Big Bang. This 3 (closer to 2.7) K microwave background originated approximately 300,000 years after the Big Bang itself had occurred. It has been determined that when these signals originated, the universe had already cooled down to around 3000 K.
Reply With Quote