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Originally Posted by Taks
that's the entire argument that has been made all along by M&M, fram. i don't know how many times i have to point to their work. they clearly showed removing even a few of the tree-ring series and the results changed significantly.
stalagmites that you've pointed to are a) single proxy and b) clearly state that they measure CO2, which is known to be rising.
ice cores don't show temperature, they show CO2 only.
taks
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What you see in their work and what I see in their work differs significantly, and you should know that by now. What they showed was using only the extreme data from a dataset will get you an extreme result.
About the stalagmites: no kidding, single proxy? What kind of argument is that, Taks. When I point to tree ring studies, they are flawed. When I point to mulitproxy studies that include treering proxies, they are worthless as well, because they use treerings and because the treerings dominate the results. When I use other proxies, they are no good because they are single proxy. I presume that if I pointed to some multiproxy study that did not include treerings, it would still be invalid because you don't like the single proxies behind them. Basically, you just dismiss any study you don't like.
Stalagmite based climate studies don't only measure CO2. They measure the isotopes, chemical mix, pH, ...
See e.g.
http://we.vub.ac.be/~dglg/Web/Verhey...e-thesis.html:
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the relationship between the d18O, d13C, 1000Mg/Ca and 1000Sr/Ca ratios of low Mg calcite speleothems and the climatic and environmental parameters that control it
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This study gets its results from
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On the basis of monitoring the present carbonate deposit, the drip water and the environmental conditions near the sedimentation, and the detailed sedimentological study on its cut sections a synthetic study including stable isotopes, AMS-C14 dating and U-series dating was applied for extracting the climatic change information.
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This pattern can be seen in all stalagmite studies, it seems: isotopes, annual layer thickness, ...
As for the ones I pointed to:
the one I did point to in this thread did not measure CO2 but layer thickness.
Ice cores don't show CO2 only either. They show basically the same data as stalagmites, with isotopes, ions, all greenhouse gases, annual layer thickness, ...
See e.g.
this page or
this page to get an idea of the depth and breadth of the research done with ice cores.
Claiming that "ice cores don't show temperature, they show CO2 only." is very wrong, Taks. Idem dito for stalagmites.