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Originally Posted by turbonium
Oh yeah, it was like 10-20 seconds that they 'just stood there'. Oh wait, no, it was about 1 second and it was a noisy crowd, close in, with flashbulbs going off. Yeah the 'stooges' just stood there. Ever notice the sheriff's hand on Oswald's belt? He was trying to pull Oswald out of the way. Have you even seen the footage? Doesn't seem like it to me.
Of course I've seen the footage, countless times. I've always thought the shooting was totally contrived. And looking at frames from the video has only confirmed my belief that it was all staged.
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I've been meaning to follow up on this for a while, but haven't had time until now.
Here again is the link to the
Phenix video.
Now,
turbonium, you claim you've seen the video "countless times." I'd like you to watch it a few more times, and I request that you stipulate to the following:
1) Ruby starts to jump out of the crowd just after the video counter reaches 00:01.
2) The shot comes just as the counter reaches 00:02.
3) Ruby is in the process of being knocked down when the counter reaches 00:03.
Also, if you would,
turbonium, please note the shadows in the video--there are a lot of really bright TV lights in the garage there, shining right in the detectives' eyes. And they've just come out of the police station, with no TV lights inside, so their eyes wouldn't have fully adjusted when Ruby jumped out of the crowd. Also, as you can see, Detectives Leavelle (light suit) and Graves (dark suit) aren't looking in Ruby's direction--they're looking toward the car they're going to put Oswald in.
Human reaction times vary from about 0.1 - 0.2 seconds; Detectives Leavelle and Graves were in their mid-40s at the time, so theirs would likely have run toward the higher end of that range. Therefore, they had, at best, about 3/4 of a second to react.
Here are some relevant statements by Leavelle and Graves about the shooting.
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Detective James Leavelle (Report on Oswald's Shooting)
out...came the figure of a man with a gun in hand. He took two quick steps and double actioned a .38 revolver point blank at Oswald. I Jerked back on Oswald, at the same time reaching out and catching Jack Ruby on the left shoulder, shoving back and down on him, bringing myself between Ruby and Oswald. I could see Det. Graves had Ruby's gun hand and gun in his hands.
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Detective L. C. Graves (WC)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any discussion about staying close to Oswald?
Mr. GRAVES. We were instructed to stay close to him; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, now, was there any discussion about protecting Oswald from other people who'd like to get at him?
Mr. GRAVES. Well, to come down and tell us to do that would be elementary, actually, because, I mean, we just know to do that, and our captain knows that we know to do that. So, actually, we weren't specifically told, "Now, you just watch this man and don't let anybody touch him." Or anything like that. We were told that the way would be open and nobody would be interfering with us. Wouldn't be anybody there. All we would have to do was walk to the car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any fear that somebody might come right up in front of him and do something to him?
Mr. GRAVES. We didn't have any fear of that because as I said, that--we were told that the security was so that no one would be there but newsmen and officers....
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how many steps did you take before something happened?
Mr. GRAVES. You mean after we walked out in the hallway?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. GRAVES. It is approximately 15 feet from where I was to the jail house door where we came out into the hallway, roughly 15 feet.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack Ruby move out of the crowd?
Mr. GRAVES. No; I didn't see Jack Ruby move out of the crowd.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the first time that you noticed Jack Ruby?
Mr. GRAVES. I estimated before I saw the film it was a split second before he pulled that trigger and actually, he was taking a step and coming down like so [indicating]. I caught him out of the corner of my eye and I thought that I started reaching for him at that moment, which the film indicates that I did, which happened quickly, as you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. GRAVES. Just a matter of simultaneous movement. You just move when you see something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually see the gun before you heard it--heard the shots fired?
Mr. GRAVES. Yes; in fact, that is the first thing I saw coming that way, and I just started after it, I guess, automatically, nothing else to do, that I could see....
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you were quite surprised when you saw these news people?
Mr. GRAVES. I was surprised that they were rubbing my elbow. You know, if you saw that film, you saw one of them with a mike in his hand. He actually rubbed my elbow. We were in a slight turn when this thing happened, and my attention had been called to that car door, and this joker was standing there with a microphone in his hand, and others that--I don't know if they were newsmen--they weren't officers--had cameras around their necks and everything....
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you saw Jack come forward with the gun in his hand, did you hear anybody say anything?
Mr. GRAVES. I heard noise. There was a racing of a motor and noises, talking going on. As I say, my attention had been directed to that car, and we had already turned, looked in that direction and something could have been said, but as I said, I heard noises but just exactly what was said I wasn't able to determine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you remember doing when Jack came forward with the gun?
Mr. GRAVES. I remember going after the gun. Just the moment I saw him, that is what I actually did, was go for the gun.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you wrestle with him? With Jack?
Mr. GRAVES. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you tell us what you remember Jack Ruby doing from the time you saw him and while you wrestled with him and so forth?
Mr. GRAVES. Well, I grabbed his arm by the wrist with my left hand, and grabbed right over the gun with my right hand simultaneously.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You grabbed the arm holding the gun?
Mr. GRAVES. Yes; and jerked it down and across my leg and turned my back to him, and, of course, he was trying to pull back, and was squeezing on that trigger like so [indicating].
I had his wrist here [indicating], and I could feel it, and I remember saying, "turn it loose. Turn it loose." You know, like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are making a motion like you are twisting his arm?
Mr. GRAVES. Yes; I was. See, I had it like this, and I had got that arm and then twisted that gun like that [indicating], right out of his hand, see.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me indicate for the record that you have shown that you twisted his arm 180°.
Mr. GRAVES. Until he released it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Until he released the gun?
Mr. GRAVES. Yes.
Mr. GRAVES. How long was it from the time you released--grabbed his arm until he released the gun?
Mr. GRAVES. Just a matter of seconds.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was not a long struggle?
Mr. GRAVES. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Fairly easy to wrestle the gun away?
Mr. GRAVES. Put it this way. It wasn't easy because he had a grip on the gun, but the way I took it, he had to turn it loose. I had his arm--kind of hard to explain--take your arm and bend it over my leg like that and twist down on it like that [indicating]. You have got to give.[emphasis added]
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Originally Posted by turbonium
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Notice the reporter standing right next to Graves (the "joker" with the microphone). Ruby is almost directly in front of him in the picture, yet he is not reacting. Is he in on the conspiracy, too? Also, you have failed to mention someone else who is clearly "utterly oblivious" at this point--Oswald. By your own criteria,
turbonium, you are wrong about Oswald's not being involved in the conspiracy--obviously he was complicit in his own murder!! What a dedicated conspirator!!
In fact, this picture was snapped just as Ruby jumped out of the crowd--
before anyone had time to react at all, including Oswald. This photo is evidence of nothing other than the speed with which Ruby approached.
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Originally Posted by turbonium
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Yes,
turbonium--bending backwards for a fraction of a second when someone has just totally unexpectedly fired a gun right in front of you--that's such an incredibly unnatural reaction.
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Originally Posted by turbonium
And not once does he even look down at the gun, nor make any effort to subdue Ruby - he just keeps looking at Ruby's face as he comes in and shoots Oswald....
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That's correct--not once in the entire 3/4 or less of a second does he look down at the gun--absolutely scandalous.
Look back at the first picture,
turbonium. Notice the positions of Leavelle's and Oswald's heads. Oswald is blocking Leavelle's view of Ruby as Ruby jumps out of the crowd, so Leavelle would have had even less time than Graves to react. As for not attempting to subdue Ruby, notice also [edit: in the "bending backward" picture] that Leavelle is
handcuffed to Oswald. This would tend to be an impediment in hand-to-hand combat. Leavelle did help subdue Ruby, as he notes in his report, but he was unable to stop Ruby from firing a shot.
<snip of gratuitous insults to Dallas Police>
Now,
turbonium, in light of the foregoing, I make the following assertions:
1) There is nothing in the video or the still photographs linked above that suggests that Detectives Leavelle and Graves were in any way complicit in Oswald's murder, or that they in any way failed to discharge their duty once they became aware that Ruby was attempting to shoot Oswald.
2) Your claims that the photos and the video show such evidence are based on unrealistic expectations concerning human perception and reaction times, and are obviously colored by your clear predisposition to uncritically accept any perceived anomalies in the historical record as evidence of a conspiracy.
3) The reason that Ruby only fired one shot is most likely that Detective Graves grabbed Ruby's gun hand before he could fire a second.
If you wish to dispute any of the above points, please provide some real evidence, rather than just your opinion, which, for reasons discussed in point 2) above, is quite frankly almost worthless.
[edit: punctuation, line break, and clarity]