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Old 25-May-2006, 07:05 AM
turbonium turbonium is offline
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Eyewitnesses. While not infallible, if you have lots and lots of them that all attest to having seen the same thing, that kind of helps indicate that they're probably right.

Many eyewitnesses did not see the same thing (see more on that below). So that evidence is very much in question.

Plane bits.

The aircraft debris is very much in question. As I said, the identification of the parts has not been established. Relying on the debris photos does not go anywhere near to establishing a positive identification of origin.

Admittedly fuzzy video.

Very poor evidence of a 757. As I said before, I find it extremely difficult to believe these are the best images in existence. As one person noted on another site about the quality of the Pentagon surveillance equipment, the images look like they come from "... the equivalent of a camera-phone tied to a stick hundreds of feet away ...", and some local mini-mart videos look like Imax 3-D in comparison.

A big, plane-shaped hole.

No - images available from soon after the impact only show a single, small hole. Why do you think it's a "big, plane-shaped hole? The towers had big, plane shaped holes, but I certainly don't see that at the Pentagon. If the wings didn't slice into the wall of the building, what happened to them? There were no fragments of them outside the building.

Identified remains of people who were on the plane in question.

Documentation? I also have to wonder about how they were supposedly able to identify so many of the Flight 93 victims through DNA when there isn't even any airplane debris to identify. But that's another issue, again.

A plane that disappeared from radar into the Pentagon.

They completely lost track of Flight 77, well before the Pentagon was hit. There is nothing from the radar to suggest - let alone confirm - that what hit the Pentagon was actually Flight 77.

For 36 minutes, the FAA lost track altogether of American Airlines Flight 77, which was able to turn around and fly east toward the Pentagon, undetected by radar.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Jun17.html

American Airlines headquarters in Fort Worth, Texas, learns that Flight 77 is not responding to radio calls, is not emitting a transponder signal, and flight control has lost its location since 8:56 a.m. [9/11 Commission, 2/27/2004]

A plane that never reappeared anywhere else.

No reports of it being seen elsewhere isn't evidence that it must therefore have hit the Pentagon.

Lots of missing people who were on the plane.

Same as above.

Damage leading up to the Pentagon that indicates a big frickin' plane.

Actually, very little damage leading up to the Pentagon was seen. A bent light post or two is just about it. The "Pentalawn" was still untouched. There is nothing whatsoever about surrounding damage that would lead one to conclude it was "a big fricking plane".

The conclusion of lots and lots of structural engineers that what we saw is what is likely to happen if a big frickin' plane hit the Pentagon.

That's a general statement, not evidence. What specific points of evidence are you saying comes from this "bunch 'o gears" to support their argument?

I'm sure I'm missing evidence.

That is true beyond a shadow of a doubt.

...and can you provide any concrete evidence--motive is not concrete evidence--that anything happened other than a Big Frickin' Plane hitting the Pentagon? I want details and citations, please, though I don't require that the citations be from websites. Documents are also acceptable.

Since you have requested (and can't seem to patiently wait a day for) an opposing argument - which includes any concrete evidence, and to provide supporting details, citations and documents, it would have been nice if you had included any concrete evidence and provided any details, citations and documents to support your own argument.

You are asking us to provide you with solid evidence to support our argument. I would like to request the same thing of you - not a general checklist like you have made above. However, I don't anticipate you will have any more success than myself, because the best evidence is still being withheld by the officials. Such as....

Videos

There have been reportedly been 85 videos confiscated by the FBI relating to the Pentagon hit... http://www.flight77.info/00new/appeal2.jpg

I don't know how many surveillance cameras the Pentagon would have had in normal day-today operation on 9/11 (both interior and exterior). Nor how many of those cameras may have captured images / footage of anything relating to the strike. But I know they had more than one crummy far off camera for that entire wall.

Debris

An article by USAF Col. George Nelson (ret.), speaking from his years of experience in aircraft investigations notes....

...not one piece of hard aircraft evidence has been produced in an attempt to positively identify any of the four aircraft.

http://www.physics911.net/georgenelson.htm

Black boxes

FBI Director Robert Mueller said Flight 77's data recorder provided altitude, speed, headings and other information, but the voice recorder contained nothing useful.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in501989.shtml

Let's see the information claimed above.

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So, with the videos, aircraft parts, and black box data being withheld, what is left is essentially the only type of evidence they can't confiscate, lock up in a building and not release to the public - witnesses. (...well, that's probably open for debate, too!) So below are a few of the witnesses who support the argument for an explosive device causing the impact...

Witnesses

Don Perkal

The airliner crashed between two and three hundred feet from my office in the Pentagon, just around a corner from where I work. I'm the deputy General Counsel, Washington Headquarters Services, Office of the Secretary of Defense...People shouted in the corridor outside that a bomb had gone off upstairs on the main concourse in the building...Even before stepping outside I could smell the cordite. Then I knew explosives had been set off somewhere.

http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2001/09/19perkal.html

- John Bowman, a retired Marine lieutenant colonel and a contractor, was in his office in Corridor Two near the main entrance to the south parking lot.

"Everything was calm,' Bowman said. "Most people knew it was a bomb. Everyone evacuated smartly. We have a good sprinkling of military people who have been shot at."


http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/penta...s/10380-1.html

"We heard what sounded like a missile, then we heard a loud boom," said Tom Seibert, 33, a network engineer at the Pentagon.

Stanley St Clair was stumbling along the road away from the vast building, covered in dust...
"It shook the whole building and hurt our ears. Papers and furniture and debris just went flying through the hallway and I thought it was a bomb or something.[/i]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/s...550486,00.html

Gilah Goldsmith

"We saw a huge black cloud of smoke," she said, saying it smelled like cordite, or gun smoke.

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:...ient=firefox-a

Even melted glass was reportedly seen....

Walker Lee Evey, program manager of the (Pentagon)restoration project.....The fire was so hot, Evey said, that it turned window glass to liquid and sent it spilling down walls into puddles on the ground.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in503257.shtml

The maximum temperature of burning jet fuel is aout 1520 °F. But glass (as used for windows) has a melting point of over 2500 °F*. If there was melted glass, it was not from jet fuel!!
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