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Old 16-June-2006, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbonium
Let me see if I have this correct. For the official story we have,

A bunch of people saying a plane hit the Pentagon.


Most of which did not say they actually saw a plane hit the Pentagon. If you look at the accounts, the vast majority saw a plane nearby, but did not see an actual impact.
But even if that were true (and you would need to get all the reports and tally them to confirm 'a vast majority', if say 200 people see an airplane then 10 seconds later there is an explosion and the airplane is not seen again, it's probalby enough to infer the plane crashed. WHere did this vast majority that saw the plane in the air, but not the impact say the plane went?
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbonium
There's a hole in the Pentagon the size of a plane.

The holes in the towers were each the size of a plane, specifically conforming to the size and shape of a 756 or 767. The Pentagon had one round hole, which could be caused by any number of objects.
Why would you expect them to be the same? The WTC was a tall building with steel support columns (basically) that separated the windows. Similar in some ways to a chain link fence. The Pentagon is large stone building with small windows. Sort of like the holes in a brick. Third pic down on the right side shows the marks of the wings on the side of the wtc. Notice the steel is bent and the windows ar broken. Some of the steel is broken but it's not a plane shaped hole in the building, just the glass. If you throw a snowball at a chainlink fence, it breaks apart and continues on, in chunks, through the openings in the metal. When you throw one at a brick, the snow breaks up and only passes through the openings. The wigs of flight 77 did just that against the Pentagon. They were shredded as they hit the stone building. The fuel and fuselage gave the center of the plane a high sectional density, to use ballistics term, which puched through the stone, creating a round hole.
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbonium
There are plane parts all over the crash area.

"All over"? Some first hand witnesses saw absolutely no aircraft debris at the site. And none of the debris has been conclusively shown to have come from a 757, nor specifically Flt. 77.
And some did see plane debris. The most recent thing you linked to was part of a quote that let off the part that made it second hand information. There is debris in the pictures of the site. Surely that wasn't brought in after the crash when the place was swarming with live news feeds to cover the event. If it was placed before, where was it hidden and how did it get there?
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbonium
AA77 is missing.

I agree with this point. It still hasn't been found. But of course, the only place they looked for it was at the Pentagon!
And where else was a reasonable place to look?
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbonium
But taking it as you actually meant it - the absence of the aircraft cannot be taken as valid evidence it therefore must have hit the Pentagon.
Not that it must have, no. The only thing that must be true it that the plane had to go somewhere. The evidence released to date says that that it is far more likely that it hit the Pentagon than anything else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbonium
There is a plane load of missing passengers.

Same as the previous.
Ditto
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbonium
Poor quality videos shows an object traveling at airplane speeds.

Which is also not valid evidence on which to base the claim of Flt. 77 hitting the Pentagon.
But it supports it. As has been poited out, the Pentagon tapes are the only ones that the government can legally release. If any other privately owned tapes exist, and the owners choose not to release them, then they are not available to the public. THe one video that we have is poor yes. It was shot from a good distance away with a camera designed to capture the car and driver of a person stopped in front of it. Why is the quality a surprise?
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbonium
Cars in Pentagon parking lot damaged by something flying over head.

Again, a point which does not provide evidence for Flt. 77.
Again, it supports it. Whatever hit the Pentagon was a ceratin minimum size, which can be seen from the light poles. A bomb would have been too small. As would a missile. Even a light plane/ turpo-prop/ or Leer jet sized would have been too small. Only something about the size of a 757 would have been large enough to it the light poles that were affected. Does this confirm it was flight 77? No. Does it eliminate the used of a bomb or missile? Yeah, pretty much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbonium
WTC attacked with planes.

Completely irrelevant. Two planes hitting other buildings in a different city does not prove another plane therefore must have hit another building.
The WTC and Pentagon aren't linked because they happened in different cities???? Does that mean there is doubt on th US involvement in WW II. I mean the US was supposedly in Europe and the Pacific. That's half a world away!!! There is no way we could have carried on operations in two places at once. Right?

Or is it your contention that the WTC was hit by a terrorist attack, and by sheer coincidence, the Pentagon was scheduled to be hit by Conspiriacy Inc. the same way, just hours later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbonium
Low flying plane reported over DC

Which again is not evidence for the claim that Flt. 77 hit the Pentagon.
But it supports the Plane hitting the Pentagon story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbonium
For the CTs we have,

Conflicting eyewitness statements, but not about the plane, just the fine details.


No, the conflicting statements include the plane (or lack thereof).
If there was no plane, explain the damage leading up to the Pentagon.
Poor quality videos shows an object traveling at airplane speeds, but object can't clearly be IDed as a plane.

The object can't be ID'ed as a plane, period.[/quote]
Agreed. It can't be Identified as anything really, except that something very fast moved in the direction that the plane must have moved in order to hit the Pentagon where it did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbonium
Government not releasing all the evidence when the CTs want it.

No. Government not releasing any concrete evidence. When everybody should require it.
So, rather than a summary report, even one in great detail written by those who are qualified to interpret the evidence found, you would like to allow all the evidence in the case to be presented for hands on inspection by the general public?

When has this been done in a major case?

How could the debris prove or disprove the existence of a 757 if the only think you actually saw was a report with the findings of the FAA and American?

Where is the support for the claim you made that every part of a 757 is numbered?

Why is the compressor fan from an engine of the same type used on a 757 present if there was no 757? Do you claim it was brought in after the fact, or was it planted before the explosion. If either... How? It's not like it would fit in a lunchbox?

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbonium
No pictures available of dead bodies or body parts

Or pictures of the plane hitting the building. Or pictures of clearly identifiable 757 parts. Or pictures of anything that proves the Gov't claim.
Maybe there ARE no pictures of the plane hitting the building. Maybe the pictures of bodies or body parts are being withheld so they don't end up on a poster on the wall of a bunker in some desert somewhere with "He Shoots, He Scores!!!" written on the front in the appropriate language. Maybe, given the global insensitivity shown by the press these days, the people that have control over the release of the picturs don't want them splashed across the front of all the news magazines. After all blood sells.

There are pictures of the bodies of the people from the WTC, because there were outside, on display where the news crews could get their own shots. Between the smoke and secure nature of the Pentagon, do you really think news crews could have gotten inside wher the fuselage ended up?
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbonium
By a preponderance of the evidence, it was a plane. No evidence for anything else.

What preponderance of evidence? There is clearly a burden of proof for the Government claim that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon. They have absolutely failed to prove that claim.
The report of the official findings in not good enough? Okay. It's still the official. It's not the job of the people who do the official reports to come back, avery so often and say, "no we really mean it". If there is a disagreement with the official report then it is up to those who disagree to find evidence. Just because the evidence you want hasn't been released does not mean that must exist and is being supressed. It may have not survived.
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