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Originally Posted by Ken G
But what's a photon? What's a "path"? These are all human constructions, and we're just smart apes.
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Yes and no. Certainly these are concepts that we've created, but the question is, do they have some kind of corresponding elements in whatever reality is?
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Originally Posted by Ken G
How spectacularly unlikely is it that this is what reality "really" does? Then factor in the fact that it breaks down at some scale, so how does reality "get across" those scales to build these paths and these photons? Simply because we have five senses and a meager brain, and have had great successes with them, should we take this is as reason to suspect that reality will give up its secrets to us with millennia of effort and contemplation? I sorely doubt it. I don't even think reality has the slightest concept of a number, let alone a location or a path or a photon that would require such quantification.
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This seems to be more or less an argument from incredulity. It seems unlikely to you that we'd be able to understand reality, so you're just assuming that we don't. And then it seems amazing to you that our theories work at all, because it's "overwhelmingly obvious" that they don't bear any relation to what the universe is really like. I'm saying, maybe it's not that amazing. Maybe the reason our theories work so spectacularly well is that they
do correspond to reality. Not perfectly, of course. But neither are they completely unrelated.
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Originally Posted by Ken G
It just follows some immutable and spectacularly incomprehensible rules of being, i.e., it is what it is. Human conceptualizations are actually an effort to replace reality with something else, something smaller and more comprehensible (ergo Occam's razor), and the introduction of numbers and mathematics helped that process a lot for some sublimely profound reason. That this works so well in some situations is what is so amazing, but I do not see that as very good evidence at all that we are "close" to comprehending the most fundamental rules of existence. Not close at all, I should think (as per the "Planck domain").
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This is the attitude that I find strange. You seem to be assuming
a priori that the universe is incomprehensible. So when theory does well, and the universe looks like maybe it is comprehensible after all, you instead hold to your postulate and insist, no, those are just models, we don't understand
reality at all. The universe is not
really filled with baryons and leptons and photons that interact according to certain rules. Instead, it must instead be something that we cannot ever hope to understand that for some odd (and presumably equally incomprehensible) reason happens to
behave just like it were made of baryons and leptons and so forth.
I'm certainly not suggesting that we have everything figured out, and I'd even acknowledge that maybe we never will. But you seem to be taking the extreme point that reality is completely unknowable, and I don't think you actually have any evidence for that apart from your own intuition.
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Originally Posted by Nereid
When I get thoughts like these, I put on my 'history hat'.
That there were really, really smart people in ancient Greece, Rome, China, India, ... is where I start from. Sadly, much of what these really smart people worked out is lost to us - no written records survive.
However, from what does survive, we can get a sense of just how reasonable it seemed to those folk that 'air, water, fire, earth' was pretty close to what real reality is.
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It is sad that we've lost so much of that. And I wouldn't suggest that we're intrinsically smarter than any of those people (actually, on average we're probably not nearly as smart as the ones whose writings have actually survived, since their ideas were the ones later people thought were worth copying down). On the other hand, they hadn't really come up with the idea of actually testing their ideas to see if they worked. The ideas seemed "reasonable", but as we've discovered, being reasonable isn't a good way to tell if that's the way things actually work.
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Originally Posted by Nereid
Or, to take a more recent example, phlogiston.
From ancient Greece to today is a mere ~2500 years (and ~500 from phlogiston); did the universe change so dramatically in such a short time? Or did we?
If we could fast forward 500, or 2500, years, how much like phlogiston, or earth/air/water/fire, would 'photons' and 'Feynman diagrams' seem?
An easier way to see this: between the proton and the top quark is what, ~2 OOM (in mass)? Add in the electron, and it's ~5 OOM. When the LHC comes on stream, we will get up to ~10 TeV, which will be another ~2 OOM.
Look at all the richness of the universe, in those ~6 OOM!
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Let's look closely at some of these more recent examples, though. Once we thought atoms were the smallest components of matter, and that they came in a large number of varieties. Later we realized that in fact, they have internal structure. Many of the properties of various types of atoms (that up until then could only be determined experimentally) could actually be deduced from theory. But even though we now know that atoms are composite entities, does that mean taht it no longer makes sense to talk about atoms? Or that many of the things that we had figured out about how atoms behave wer suddenly no longer true? No, that's not the case. So then we discover that the protons and neutrons in the nucleus aren't fundamental either. But even with the existence of quantum chromodynamics, is it meaningless now to talk about protons? Again, no. For that matter, with the development of quark theory, that changed what we (think we) know about protons quite a bit, but atoms, not so much. Moreover, I'd be willing to make a Hawking-like bet that any new theory we develop will still have elements in it that correspond to protons, electrons, and so forth. So, unless you want to deny the existence of objective reality altogether, I'd actualyl say that protons are real things. To be precise, there is an element of reality that corresponds to what we call protons. Of course it's almost certain that we don't understand them fully. But I don't think it's realistic to think that in 500 years our descendents might be laughing, "can you believe it, they believed in
protons!" in the same way we might laugh about phlogiston.