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Old 27-December-2006, 02:03 AM
brodix brodix is offline
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Originally Posted by Bjoern View Post
But the black hole has a diameter which is so small in comparison to the whole galaxy that if you shine a beam of light "across" it, there is an almost 100% probability that you will miss that black hole, and the beam will continue to the other side (perhaps a bit deflected, but not much). True, the beam of light wouldn't go through the exact center then - but nevertheless, this would give you a very accurate diameter for the galaxy.
I'm not claiming expertise. In fact, I'd happily qualify as making up stories, if they, at the very least, help me to better understand what's going on. When I first started reading physics, thirty years ago, I had no further expectation. The idea which started me on this concept was a point Hawking made in his book, A Brief History of Time, that for the universe to be as stable as it is, Omega had to be very close to 1. Being a simple-minded sort, I immediately thought a convective cycle(rising heat/collapsing cold) would explain that relationship far more neatly then the anthropic principle. Given the level of the popsci I was reading at the time, the idea which first occurred to me was that mass and the space it defined were being drawn into black holes, into another dimension and re-emerging as vacuum fluctuation. This way, the expansion was integral to the space and not simply that everything was flying apart from a singularity. So that the further light traveled, the more expanding space it crossed, this compounded the effect, so that it eventually seemed as though the source was receding at the speed of light and this created a horizon line, beyond which light couldn't travel, creating a sphere of visibility. Someone with far more education pointed out that light made a perfectly good vehicle, so I dropped the other dimension.

I'm almost surprised at the number of occasions I've witnessed amateurs suggest some version of balanced relationship between this expansion of space and the contraction of gravity. One of the more memorable was on a local radio show(Mark Steiner, WYPR. Baltimore. The Hubble is run out of Johns Hopkins) It variably gets laughed off.


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That would only be right for a closed universe, with a finite volume. But the evidence points to a flat (or open) universe, with infinite volume.
I thought a flat or open universe simply meant that it wouldn't contract back to a point?

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Right - but I don't see any connection to the following...

Good, since I cannot follow you here at all.
If expansion is a property which is balanced by gravity and assuming all gravitational effect is currently in effect, it presumably would neutralize the expansion of space, so that the universe as a whole isn't getting any bigger, because these two effects cancel one another.

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This was about your assertion that gravity "contracts space".

(1) What you describe here has nothing to do with "contracting space".

(2) What you describe here is only true for a Schwartzschild-like metric. I thought we were talking about the universe as a whole? (Robertson-Walker metric!)
Pardon my ignorance, but could you give a thumbnail?

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But we already know from GR that radiation has no such effect (well, there is radiation pressure, but I don't think you mean that). If you doubt the validity of GR, please provide evidence against it.
Obviously, or there would be no BBT. The idea is whether radiation/light is actually the source of the cosmological constant. I don't see it as disproving Einstein, but rather tying a couple of the loose ends to each other.

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Yes, that was its original purpose. But even Einstein himself knew already that this isn't the only thing which it can do.
Yes, but first you have to figure out what causes it, before you can really figure out what it does.

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Radiation "cooling done" and then "condensing out as mass"? What on earth are you talking about? Do you have any evidence that this is possible?
I'm trying to tie the concept of convection to this larger process. In fact, convection would be an aspect of this larger process. Matter cools and falls until it does it heats up and rises. In the convection cycle, this energy would then cool down and fall back to earth. What would be the comparable aspect of the cosmic process? The light, having been redshifted off the chart.....to the mass which starts condensing out of the most ethereal intergalactic gases to eventually falling into the galactic vortex..... (story making any sense?)

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Why should they?
In a cycle, like a wheel, one side tends to be the same diameter as the other.

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Additionally, I still don't understand what this has to do with your original assertion (quoting from an earlier post):

This still looks like complete world salad to me, and I see no connection to what you wrote here.
IF it is space that is expanding lightwaves and not the galaxies flying apart, then the reason the furtherest galaxies appear to be receding at the speed of light is because the light from them has crossed the most space and the effect is compounded, so that the further light travels, the greater the multipler effect, thus the faster the source appears to be receding, NOT because these galaxies are traveling fastest because they are at the dawn of the universe and everything has been slowing down since then.

The additional expansion for which dark energy was proposed and has recently been shown to compare to the cosmological constant, means that something is augmenting the presumably slowing expansion, such that the space itself appears to be expanding. If it is a lensing effect and not the galaxies actually flying apart from one another, then you don't need the massive amount of energy required to actually be pushing them apart.

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Please give references to these studies. Which black holes were studied, specifically? E. g. the black holes in active galaxies are very active (duh).
I like to read a lot and it wasn't something I noted down. Possibly it was on the Nature site. I get their email update. Would you have a link to the study of active black holes? It sounds interesting.

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More word salad. What does it mean to call the CMBR the "dew point"? What does it mean to be "above" the CMBR? What are "the most elemental components of mass"? What does "at the string level" mean?
Part of the reason Inflation theory was proposed was to explain how the CMBR would be so even, at 2.7k, across the universe, when this would require information traveling faster then the speed of light. Possibly this level(2.7k) is due to a natural phase transition, such as the density above which some effect causes the radiation to start condensing into elemental mass.

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What investigations are you talking about, specifically?
Pretty much anything to do with the quantum realm.

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And why jump from photons directly to hydrogen? Why not first "condense" to electrons or some other simple particle like that?
My mistake.

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As long as you don't have math (and hence can't make quantitative descriptions and predictions), you are not doing physics - you are merely making up stories.
Stories came long before the math. No story, no math. Quantum theorists have this notion that it's only the math that makes sense. It only means the story lays beyond their comprehension and they only see the highlights.