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Originally Posted by heusdens
Although you make some sense, the point is that in space we somehow do not less damage to the planet, because we live somewhere else.
All our equipment and resources, to some extend, still are derived from earth.
In fact, we need far more out there, then we need here.
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Part of the next phase of space exploration will hopefully start making strides in eliminating some of the need to come back to Earth for resources. Its one of the BIG reasons we're trying to find locations with water already present. Early build up will require support from home, but if you can put the right pieces in place, the need to come back to Earth for resources is mitigated. Complete independence is probably a far future accomplishment, but it does not make taking the steps before total self sufficiency less worth taking.
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Originally Posted by heusdens
That is the point I am trying to make. Unless in a very far future we can in principle have an independend existence (i.e. self sustainable existence) on some other planet, we keep depending on resources of earth.
So, the goal we set for is imho contrary to the grounds for doing it.
If we decide to and strive for the goal of doing less damage to the earth itself, for sure there are better options.
Replace fossil fuels with renewables on a massive scale, and recycle all materials we ever use.
To achieve such a long time goal, which is in my point of view essential to our survival, we would involve far more technological achievements and implement that on a far bigger scale as technologies derived from or aimed at space travel/space colonization.
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We've got to start somewhere. We can't just sit here on Earth spinning our wheels until we're ready to launch a fully self sufficient colony from day one to the Moon or wherever. A much too massive and complicated undertaking. Piecemeal build up is much more logical, because it prevents a massive overcommitment of resources that may not address the specific needs of a colony in any given situation. Resource availability may entail tailoring the post-colonial supplies from Earth to a colony's specific needs until such needs can be addressed locally through sufficient supply recycling or a local source can be found.
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Originally Posted by heusdens
What is weird / illogical is that some possible transformations (from our current wasting economy to a durable and renewable economy) are not undertaken at the basis of arguments which, when applied to space travel, would lead us to never go into space in the first place.
For example building a home which does not depend on any outside energy resource, makig use of all available energy resources in the environment, from wind to solar to biofuels to thermal energy underground, etc., and that on a massive scale, is prohibited, since the nondurable fossil energy price is still less expensive (on the short term).
While we know, the prices are going up rapidly once we enter the peak oil scenario, and can't escape from it then, so we need to take action on before hand.
Why don't we spend more resources on things of which we know they are necessary in the long run.
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To this I will ask you to understand the corporate mentality. Suppose you were to discover and sell to a manufacturing corporation a means to make their product with a hundredth the level of environmental impact that the current process does. How do you think a corporation will respond to this? Will they maintain their current production levels as limited by the amount of pollution they're legally allowed to cause, or will they take this new expanded limit and increase production until they're right back where they started from in terms of environmental impact?
Creating energy sources and technologies that are less damaging to the environment do not mitigate the impact to the environment because the nature of industry is to expand productivity. Any "clean" technology will not result in an iota of reduced environmental impact, because the old limits will likely not be changed in response given the way global politics works. Corporations will remain right at the very limit of the level of damage they can do in order to preserve their bottom line and its eternal demand for growth.
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Originally Posted by heusdens
Please bear in mind, I am not an anti space travel fanatic. I think we should explore the universe, at least spend some of our resources on it, within reason, mostly for scientific reasons, and the technology that comes out of it and the jobs it creates, only makes that more worthwhile.
But we don't need to expect that our problems might be solved by going into space, at least not in any short timeframe, and maybe never.
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That stance requires a certain level of assumption about the kinds of creative adaptation that people can make given the opportunity to try. It would be dangerous to assume nothing can improve by investing in space technologies and growth beyond Earth without actually seeing what can be done in a practical sense. Its also why you don't simply go full throttle and suddenly up and do everything in space simply because its there as the potential benefits are as yet undefined. Piecemeal development and expansion based on evolving needs of industry will get the job done in the manner which it needs to be done. All that needs to be allowed is the opportunity to try, succeed or fail. The rest will be driven by the market.
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Originally Posted by heusdens
Problems on earth, related to global warming and climate change, polution, the problems of poverty and social welbeing of many poor, should not stop us from doing space travel, but neither can we ground arguments for going to space on such matters.
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Environmental damage cannot be a factor driven by the markets because environmental responsibility is more often damaging to the bottom line. That's really a job for the legislature to limit the impact by telling industry when enough is enough.
Poverty and social wellbeing are strawmen, because even under ideal circumstances, some people just plain suck at life and fail miserably. That's simply a reality we're going to have to learn to cope with. Too much is made of ridiculous levels of charitable sympathy.
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Originally Posted by heusdens
So I am just arguing against some false grounds of doing spacetravel.
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Which is a respectable undertaking. Space expansion isn't the cure all anymore than any other single aspect solutions. It will likely be a part of the answer, though, not the sum totality.
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Originally Posted by heusdens
Neither would I welcome a 'privatization of space'. I think space travel, and esp. the far missions, should be undertaken on a worldwide scale based on international cooperation, and for the benefit of all mankind.
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I don't personally buy much into the tear evoking symbolic nonsense about doing things for "all mankind", but I do see the need to reign in privatisation of space. Corporations aren't the most humanitarian beasts when they can get away with it, so some level of socially conscious control will have to be placed, most likely some level of government oversight. However, private space will be a part of the coming reality. Governments fund themselves through socially acceptable robbery (i.e. taxation and fees), corporations actually generate money through creation of a market, so they will have a more efficient ability to finance themselves in their endeavors and should be given a little slack on the leash.
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Originally Posted by heusdens
Private corporations are already very much involved in space travel, they built the space crafts and equipment. So why would there need to be private corporations utilizing space crafts or conduct their own missions?
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Corporate spacecraft do exist. Currently mostly LEO satellites. Very few, if any, are involved in extraplanetary exploration, simply because there's no raw dollar return on the investment. Pure knowledge is more in the realm of the academic than the industrial, so its of no use or interest, except as contractors to build spacecraft for the academics. Give them the license to actually exploit what can be found in space, and you'll see that mindset turn on the proverbial dime.