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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 30-September-2005, 09:26 AM
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Default Re: Rules discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens
I also have a little bit of trouble with the rule that you have to answer questions. It's a good rule, generally, but one might misunderstand that you have to give a correct answer to every question, which means theoretically that a person who doesn't like you could get you banned just by asking a series of really hard questions. I don't think it would be a bad idea to add something like, "If you don't know the answer, admit it."
Already considered and answered here, as well as in Item 8 of the Advice for ATM theory supporters.

Quote:
8. You’re going to be asked tough questions. When someone asks you a question – answer it. If you don’t know the answer – say so.
Bottom line is, if you've presented an idea, be prepared to defend it. Questions about the idea need to be answered. If you can't answer a question, then the "I don't know." response is of course perfectly fine. But if too many "I don't knows" start to pile up, then it's probably time to reconsider the posting of your idea, with the option of withdrawing it for further work. Items 19 and 21 of the referenced thread are pertinent here:

Quote:
19. Be willing to modify your views.
21. You need more data. All scientists need more data.
Remember, if it's your idea, then it's also exclusively your responsibility to explain and defend it.

As Item 1 in the referenced thread says:

Quote:
1. You’re going to be challenged to defend your statements with evidence.
The challenge: a question about your idea. The defense: an answer with evidence.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 30-September-2005, 09:36 AM
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Default Re: Rules discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose
One way, IMO, to handle kilopi would be to add a kilopi smiley to which folks could link from their signatures. Multiple smileys for multiple multiples. Or something.
To the best of my knowledge we have only one member who was really involved with changing names at "kilopi".

I support the BA's position re people getting one name and sticking with it.

-Mak (who might have been Catadioptric/Cassegrain/Maksutov by now)
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 30-September-2005, 10:08 AM
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How about a rule that Glom is allowed to make as many politically inflammatory comments as he likes but no-one is allowed to make them back? What? No? You people are so intolerant.

Okay, about rule 13.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule 13
If it appears that you are using circular reasoning, depending on long-debunked arguments, or breaking any of these other rules, you will receive one warning, and if that warning goes unheeded, you will be banned.
I understand the spirit of this and my concern is probably baseless on this forum, which is a shining beacon of the principles of scientific Enlightenment that have been lost in the world. My concern is that in other places, some people have tried to assert that legitimate arguments have been long debunked when in fact they haven't, based on the notion that supposedly the Establishment does not accept them. I think you all know to what I'm referring. They say the science is settled on something and then say that any further discussion should not be allowed. Of course, I have never experienced anything remotely like this on this forum so I know I have nothing to worry about.
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Old 30-September-2005, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksutov
Bottom line is, if you've presented an idea, be prepared to defend it. Questions about the idea need to be answered. If you can't answer a question, then the "I don't know." response is of course perfectly fine. But if too many "I don't knows" start to pile up, then it's probably time to reconsider the posting of your idea, with the option of withdrawing it for further work. Items 19 and 21 of the referenced thread are pertinent here:
As long as that's clear, I have no problem with it. I don't think there's anything wrong about tough questioning, in fact I think it's necessary for progress in science, so no argument there. The only thing I'm pointing out is that people should understand that there is a "graceful exit" available, that you are free, upon finding problems, to say, "You're right, I'll have to go back and reconsider things," and that posting a theory which turns out to be flaws doesn't mean banning as long as you are willing to recognize that.
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Old 30-September-2005, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glom
I understand the spirit of this and my concern is probably baseless on this forum, which is a shining beacon of the principles of scientific Enlightenment that have been lost in the world.
Yeah, the thing to remember is that in actual practice, this rule has never really kicked in before the 20th-30th page of obstinacy.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 30-September-2005, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksutov
Bottom line is, if you've presented an idea, be prepared to defend it. Questions about the idea need to be answered. If you can't answer a question, then the "I don't know." response is of course perfectly fine. But if too many "I don't knows" start to pile up, then it's probably time to reconsider the posting of your idea, with the option of withdrawing it for further work.
For me, it's not the piling of "I don't knows" that's annoying. It's when people simply dodge all inconvenient questions, by ignoring them or changing the subject.
P.S. But I think this is difficult to legislate.
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Last edited by Disinfo Agent : 30-September-2005 at 06:12 PM.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 30-September-2005, 01:55 PM
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Michael Mozina, in this ATM thread, commented as follows on the rules (my bold):
Quote:
I'm also frustrated about this whole notion of suggesting that I can't question the gas model based on these images. That is highly unusual in a scientific setting. You've setup a scenario here where I'm handed a billion and three pet "issues" that anyone and everyone is welcome to throw at me, while I can't ask anyone any questions or expect any answers to these observations from a gas model perspective. How is that a fair debate?

This process looks suspiciously "religious-like" in nature. What you are saying is more or less akin to being told I can't question your "sacred" beliefs, but you get to pick my ideas apart any way you'd like. That isn't scientifically fair IMO, nor is that a sound or standard scientific approach to scientific debate about competing theories. There are supposed to be no "sacred" theories in science, but this "method" you are insisting on imposing rigidly now makes the gas model a "sacred cow" that is somehow above scientific reproach or scrutiny.

I need to stop for awhile and decide the usefulness of trying to have a serious scientific debate about this issue given such unequal settings, and highly unusual limitations, and the constant ignoring of the answers I give as though I've never answered anything and we have start over again.

I'll post the image pixel sizes from the first few images from my website when I've decided if and how I'd like to continue this discussion on this forum given such *severe* limits on free speech and the unusual deviation from standard scientific method that has been adopted here. It's pretty clear from your last few posts and Dwayne's last few posts that things need to cool off a bit anyway. Let's all take a deep breath and think about what we all want to achieve here. I want to talk about these observations and debate them openly. You seem to want to put me under a microscope and take pot shots at anything you think I might not be able to asnwer yet avoid any direct questions about these images based on gas model theories. I don't see how that is going to produce a fair and open debate about competing ideas and models. It's more like a firing squad where no one has to explain anything from a gas model perspective, but I have to explain absolutely EVERYTHING in my model. Its all one way, and it's not an open debate. Is that really the environment you want to create here? Do you really think any single indivual or small groups of individuals could adequately address even just the images I put on my website, let alone explain how fusion ties into the gas model and how magnetic flux ropes form and that list Dwayne through at me using the gas model? Even many professional astronomers have avoided explaining the observations on my website using gas model theories, demonstrating that even experts can't answer every question posed to them using their model, but you are expecting this of me on any and every subject you toss my way. That is simply unfair and unscientific IMO. I came here for an open debate of these ideas but it looks more like a duck hunt and any theory deamed "ATM" automatically becomes the sitting duck.
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Old 01-October-2005, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari Jokimaki
Regarding rule #2, sometimes in BAUT discussions people who are not members here (Richard Hoagland for example) get insulted. I don't know how others feel about this, but I find it very annoying. So, I'm just wondering if it would be a good idea to include a mention about that to rule #2.
This is a fair point. Granted, wiggle room has been allowed in discussions of individuals positing utterly egregious claims (e.g. Lieder, Hoagland, etc.), and in such cases I'd contend harsh criticisms of psuedoscientists have been well-earned. People do need to refrain from ad-hominem attacks, however, no matter how outlandish the subject matter. FWIW, I dispatched a PM the other day to a new user who'd included an ad-hom directed at RCH.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 01-October-2005, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksutov
To the best of my knowledge we have only one member who was really involved with changing names at "kilopi".
There were three, maybe four if you count someone who changed their name but didn't continue with it. A couple more changed after a couple thousand posts, and many others changed after a significant number of posts.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 01-October-2005, 11:58 AM
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Default Re: Rules discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nereid
Michael Mozina, in this ATM thread, commented as follows on the rules (my bold):
Quote:
I'm also frustrated about this whole notion of suggesting that I can't question the gas model based on these images. That is highly unusual in a scientific setting. You've setup a scenario here where I'm handed a billion and three pet "issues" that anyone and everyone is welcome to throw at me, while I can't ask anyone any questions or expect any answers to these observations from a gas model perspective. How is that a fair debate?

This process looks suspiciously "religious-like" in nature. What you are saying is more or less akin to being told I can't question your "sacred" beliefs, but you get to pick my ideas apart any way you'd like. That isn't scientifically fair IMO, nor is that a sound or standard scientific approach to scientific debate about competing theories. There are supposed to be no "sacred" theories in science, but this "method" you are insisting on imposing rigidly now makes the gas model a "sacred cow" that is somehow above scientific reproach or scrutiny.

I need to stop for awhile and decide the usefulness of trying to have a serious scientific debate about this issue given such unequal settings, and highly unusual limitations, and the constant ignoring of the answers I give as though I've never answered anything and we have start over again.

I'll post the image pixel sizes from the first few images from my website when I've decided if and how I'd like to continue this discussion on this forum given such *severe* limits on free speech and the unusual deviation from standard scientific method that has been adopted here. It's pretty clear from your last few posts and Dwayne's last few posts that things need to cool off a bit anyway. Let's all take a deep breath and think about what we all want to achieve here. I want to talk about these observations and debate them openly. You seem to want to put me under a microscope and take pot shots at anything you think I might not be able to asnwer yet avoid any direct questions about these images based on gas model theories. I don't see how that is going to produce a fair and open debate about competing ideas and models. It's more like a firing squad where no one has to explain anything from a gas model perspective, but I have to explain absolutely EVERYTHING in my model. Its all one way, and it's not an open debate. Is that really the environment you want to create here? Do you really think any single indivual or small groups of individuals could adequately address even just the images I put on my website, let alone explain how fusion ties into the gas model and how magnetic flux ropes form and that list Dwayne through at me using the gas model? Even many professional astronomers have avoided explaining the observations on my website using gas model theories, demonstrating that even experts can't answer every question posed to them using their model, but you are expecting this of me on any and every subject you toss my way. That is simply unfair and unscientific IMO. I came here for an open debate of these ideas but it looks more like a duck hunt and any theory deamed "ATM" automatically becomes the sitting duck.
What's the problem?

Besides Moz doing the usual complaining about how he's a victim?

If he responded to one of the "billion and three pet 'issues'" (good to see he's not exaggerating) with a straightforward, evidence-laden answer, then the discussion might move on.

Instead he retreats into the usual ATM position of being some kind of victim or self-styled martyr (i.e., "anyone and everyone is welcome to throw at me, while I can't ask anyone any questions or expect any answers").

Another typical aspect of the ATM retreat is the claim that "This process looks suspiciously "religious-like" in nature." It's the old "I'm up against dogma/the system/the establishment/"the man" baloney, which is designed to shift the focus from what the ATMer is claiming to how the ATMer is being treated.

This invariably leads to the old "I'm being suppressed and therefore I'm right!" claim. This is usually coupled with comments about the rabble the "advanced thinker" has to deal with.

Quote:
I need to stop for awhile and decide the usefulness of trying to have a serious scientific debate about this issue given such unequal settings, and highly unusual limitations, and the constant ignoring of the answers I give as though I've never answered anything and we have start over again.
Same old baloney (no matter how you slice it) that's been going around for decades. Remember the kid in the playground who took his ball home?
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 01-October-2005, 04:46 PM
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I have no problem with the rules - I think they are fair and necessary. One thing I would like to comment on is the second paragraph involving warnings:
Quote:
For most of these rules, the first violation will result in a warning issued via Private Message (PM). If you have PMs turned off, we will issue the warning in the thread. In the case of a second violation, depending upon the severity, the moderators/administrators will issue a more stern warning, or they may ban you temporarily (for a few days), or they may permanently ban you.
I believe that if any poster violates the rules all warnings should be public. Two reasons. If, for example, I am rude with poster "A," a public warning will most likely nip it in the bud right there. If done via PM, Poster A or others might be inclined to respond to whatever I posted and run the risk of violating the rules themselves. At the very least it could result in the admins/mods getting barraged with people reporting the same infraction. The other reason is education. Wolverine's post regarding ad hominems involving RCH made me reflect on my past use of the term "quack" regarding one pseudoscience promoter in particular. I don't know if "quack" crosses the line or not, but the fact that I'm not so sure now will help me stick to the particular claims and avoid such unnecessary descriptors in the future.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 01-October-2005, 09:12 PM
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Default Re: Rules discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archer17
I have no problem with the rules - I think they are fair and necessary. One thing I would like to comment on is the second paragraph involving warnings:I believe that if any poster violates the rules all warnings should be public. Two reasons. If, for example, I am rude with poster "A," a public warning will most likely nip it in the bud right there. If done via PM, Poster A or others might be inclined to respond to whatever I posted and run the risk of violating the rules themselves. At the very least it could result in the admins/mods getting barraged with people reporting the same infraction. The other reason is education. Wolverine's post regarding ad hominems involving RCH made me reflect on my past use of the term "quack" regarding one pseudoscience promoter in particular. I don't know if "quack" crosses the line or not, but the fact that I'm not so sure now will help me stick to the particular claims and avoid such unnecessary descriptors in the future.[/font]
Good points about the usefulness of public notification.

Re "quack", I'd say it's appropriate if the HB/CT/ATMer is ducking the issues.

Concerning RCH and appropriate language, heck, just seeing "Hoagland" in a post is enough to get me giggling.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 02-October-2005, 01:04 AM
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I haven't read the rules yet, and only the first 5 posts in
this thread, but I have two observations already:

First, I think it is great than an area for discussion of the
rules is available! That would probably have prevented a
lot of grief in some astronomy/Space discussion forums I
participated in. Which leads to my second observation...

The Fido SPACE echo was run for years by a moderator
who was widely respected. She needed to turn the very
successful echo over to a new moderator. One person
campaigned for the job. I tried to convince the long-time
moderator that the guy who was campaigning was a bad
choice. But his campaign was successful and he won the
position. He immediately installed a way-too-long list of
rules, and enforced them as though enforcing rules was
the ultimate reason for being a moderator. He regularly
chewed out new posters for posting slightly off-topic or
other mistakes that seemed to me to be entirely innocent
in many cases. He knew he was right and wouldn't listen
to backtalk. I was temporarily banned from the echo for
what I said to him in e-mail, complaing about his rules.
The echo quickly tanked. In summary, his main problem
was his personality, which is not a problem here, and his
secondary problem was too many rules.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

Correction, a while later: If I recall correctly, I was
actually banned for complaining about the moderator's
application of the rules to another poster, not about
the rules themselves.
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Last edited by Jeff Root : 02-October-2005 at 02:24 AM.
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Old 02-October-2005, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
4. Copyright

Do not post copyrighted material here. This is very serious. It is within the law to post small, relevant quotes, but not whole passages from newspapers, magazines, books, etc. If you do, the post will be deleted, and you will be warned. Do it twice and you will be banned. If you want to reference material somewhere else on the web, give a brief summary and link to the rest. People can go take a look at what you're talking about and then return to discuss it further.

8. Hotlinking

Try to avoid putting in links to images directly from someone else's website. This can add a lot to their bandwidth, and then the host has to pay for it. In other words, if you see an image you like on an astronomy site, put in a link to that site, but don't use the [IMG] tags so the image loads into your post from their site directly. If you really want an image in your post, put it in a public site someplace and link to it from there. One exception would be from sites like NASA or universities, where bandwidth is not such an issue. If you own the image, then you can upload it to the board yourself.
First question: Can I take an image (copyrighted or not) from someone’s website, copy it to my web space, and use [IMG] tags? For all practical purposes, let’s say a whole image or part of an image?

Second question: Does CNN, ABCNews, MSNBC, etc, basically all the big News companies, fall into the same league as NASA or an universities realm of big bandwidth (when using [IMG] tags)?
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Old 02-October-2005, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Candy
First question: Can I take an image (copyrighted or not) from someone’s website, copy it to my web space, and use [IMG] tags? For all practical purposes, let’s say a whole image or part of an image?
My take: if it's copyrighted, no. Otherwise, okay.

Quote:
Second question: Does CNN, ABCNews, MSNBC, etc, basically all the big News companies, fall into the same league as NASA or an universities realm of big bandwidth (when using [IMG] tags)?
I don't think it's the big bandwidth realm so much as that NASA and universities put out their material deliberately for educational purposes, so any links to their materials (on a site like this, anyway) further their ends.

The commercial sites all pretty much have advertising around the outskirts of their pages. Linking directly to their materials bypasses one of their main ways of making money off their sites, so it's probably not appreciated.
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Old 02-October-2005, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Candy
First question: Can I take an image (copyrighted or not) from someone’s website, copy it to my web space, and use [IMG] tags? For all practical purposes, let’s say a whole image or part of an image?
Almost any image is copyrighted. What matters is if you have permission to copy it. If you copy something without permission, it can be criminal to provide links to it. If you do have permission, do whatever you like
Quote:
Second question: Does CNN, ABCNews, MSNBC, etc, basically all the big News companies, fall into the same league as NASA or an universities realm of big bandwidth (when using [IMG] tags)?
IMO, hot-linking is mostly a matter of courtesy. There are two aspects:
1) Bandwidth: You can always provide a link, and then the host will loose the bandwidth either way, although the ratio of those who follow it and people looking at the thread is usually less than 1. If the ratio is expected to be low, it might be wise not to hot-link. Then consider how many views it will have relative to what it has in its original context. At BAUT, maybe it will be shown 1000 times in one day, while maybe a million will see it from CNN. In that case I see no problem. On the other hand, a poor geocities site with limited bandwidth, might suffer badly from hot-linking.
2) Copyright: The owner might not want the image to be shown in other contexts than the original...

In the end of the day, I think it comes down to common sense. Personally I would prefer more hot-linking, since I hate have to follow links everywhere, but that's just me
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Old 02-October-2005, 02:41 PM
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