You know it had to happen sooner or later. Shouldn't the oh so wise astrologers be able to predict where all the undiscovered "planets" are with all there insight into the human mind? :-?

From the JREF newsletter:
http://www.randi.org/jr/032604why.html#3

And an astrology site:
http://www.karmastrology.com/Sedna.shtml

Astrologers really get me wound up. More than any other psuedoscience nonsense because so many people actually believe it.
Of course there is overwhelming evidence that it is all nonsense (don't get me started on my 12 reasons) but that doesn't stop hundreds if not thousands of astrologers making a healthy living from it.

One thing I always say to belivers is to ask about the 13th star sign. There should be 13 of them seeing as there are 13 constellations along the ecliptic. A few even admit that I'm right but they don't have an answer.
(In fact am I right in thinking there used to be 15 constelllations along the ecliptic??)

Oh yes, one more thing, I point out that the dates given for each star sign are fictional. They bare no resemblence whatsoever to how it really is. (does anyone know what the correct dates are? I used to have a list and it's quite surprising) Again they have no answer.

So when I'm asked what star sign I am, I either refuse to say, or say that my birthday matches one of the few days that 'Ophiuchus' is 'the one' or whatever term they use.
(Some star maps show this constellation as stopping short of the ecliptic where in fact it doesn't)

I remember shortly after september 11th there was a debate on UK TV on which the UKs so-called top astrologer admitted that because all astrologers had failed to predict 9/11 that the whole of astrology was in real trouble. Of course he's still writing daily fiction for a newspaper and often appears on these rich lists.

GGrrrrr, I'm almost annoyed just writing about it.

Typical Sagittarius thinking I guess. :roll:

Sample conversation:
Me: If I tell you I'm say, Libra, you'll judge me against what you believe a Libra person is like and assume I fit into a steroetype.
Them: No I wouldn't. I wouldn't do that.
Me: Then you've no need to know what star sign I would be.
Them: Errr...I guess so
Me: Did you know there should be 13 star signs?

(and if I'm talking to an attractive lady...)

Me: Have you ever heard of Planet X? Let me but you a drink...


(I had to get planet X in there somewhere!!)

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81.5% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

I saw something about astrologers on the Science Channel. It appears that the dates matched up once upon a time, but since are way out of line because of minor changes in the Earth's rotation and the expansion of the universe. Something like that.

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"We need to get back into that Saturn V world mentality."
Gene Cernan -- Commander Apollo 17

Fifteen constellations in the ecliptic is a new one on me.

The dates depend on when or what you are refering to. The signs are "officially" set for astrologers as the were in 100 BC. The signs were set so as to have the sun leaving Aries at the time of the vernal equinox (which is why Aries is usually the first sign in the horoscopes in the paper). Of course, the astrologers also set the signs to be equal legnth and the constellations are not. Due to precession, the sun has moved forward in Pisces and in 2049 the vernal equinox will be in Aquarius (Age of Aquarius anyone?). Actually, that date is using the equal width constallations. If you use actual width, the equinox will not reach Aquarius until 2660. Anyway, the following gives the dates the sun enters each constellation. The sign column is when it entered in 100 BC using equal width constellations. The two constellation columns are when the sun actually entered or enters the constellation in 100 BC and now. Included is Ophiuchus, which is included under Scorpio, but is not one of the signs used in astrology. The sun actually spends more time in Ophiuchus than in Scorpio.

Sun enter

Time Period--------100 BC-----------100 BC---------------Now
Constellation------Sign-----------Constellation------Constellation

Aries_________March 20_______March 20_______April 18
Taurus________April 20________April 12________May 11
Gemini________May 22________May 17_________June 15
Cancer_______June 22_________June 12________July 11
Leo__________July 23_________July 3__________August 1
Virgo________August 22_______August 10_______September 8
Libra________September 22____September 26____October 15
Scorpio______October 22_______October 21______November 19
Ophiuchus_____Not a sign______October 28_______November 26
Sagittarius____November 22____November 14_____December 14
Capricorn_____December 22____December 18_____January 16
Aquarius______January 22______January 17_______February 15
Pisces________February 21_____February 10______March 10

Some infomation on this. In 100 BC the Sun spent 277 days in the same sign and constellation. Now, it only spends 106 days. But, that is due to the unequal width of the constellations. If you keep the constellation equal width, the sun spends only 24 days in the same sign and constellation. In about 100 years, the sun will spend no days in the same sign and constellation, using equal width constellations.

Heheheheh, I can actually say my birthday is in Ophiuchus. Which throws people who ask completely off.

__________________
Some try to tell me, thoughts they cannot defend,... - Moody Blues.

Instead of being bull [-X It is going to be regarded as complete bull [-X

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Those who repeat History are doomed to learn it.

If they're going to count Sedna, shouldn't they be counting all the Kuiper Belt Objects? And, heck, Halley's Comet should count when it passes through. I like to let them guess. It's fun and it's interesting to see how you can (literally) fit the profile for 8+ signs.

Psi-less

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"Given only the ships and right sails for the heavenly space, there will also be men unafraid of the terrible distances."--Kepler, to Galileo

Hey, mine too...(Nov. 1st)...this is great!! Thanks!

A little while ago on Godlike when there were six or seven threads about Sedna on the main page at any one time I tried to bring this up. Not the most receptive audience. One tried some feeble comment about how it's all interpretation, and only what the astrologer sees and responds to is important, or something like that. Then, from memory, they started guessing what star sign I am!

Impertinence!

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Begone, braggage!
My bible!

The cheek of it!

You're a Taurus right?

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http://boinc.mundayweb.com/one/stats...630/prj:6/.png

If you're going to count an asteroid as an astrology symbol, why not some of the moons in the solar system that are waaayyy bigger, ie Ganymede, Titan, Callisto, Io, Europa, Triton? Why not some of the big main belt asteroids: Ceres, Juno, Vesta, Pallas? Why not some the Earth orbit crossing asteroids which would be more likely to affect life on Earth that Saturn's current position Gemini or Jupiter in Leo (looked those up in Astronomy Magazine)? I thing I'd be more frightened of being wipe out by an asteroid impact than of Mars being in a certain constellation that should give me bad luck.

On another note, a few years ago, the Canadian Discovery Channel was running an astronomy show called "Cosmic Highway". During their second season, they decided to do an episode on astrology: they really poked fun at it, while at the same time debunking it. Some of the things said:

-if it works, why are there so many formats (Greeks, Chinese, Mayan) that all say different things for the same constellation?
-at one point, they decided to read someone's horroscope. That person was, according to his horroscope, warm, friendly, and good at making conversation. It turned out to be Adolph Hitler's horroscope. You would have thought that something would have screamed that this was going to be a dangerous person, but no.
-they also repeated the statement that the astrology constellation no longer match their true astronomy position, but they reported that the constellations' current positon was 2 units ahead instead of just one. Ah, precession.

All in all, when in a crowd and someone starts reading horroscopes, I usually just roll my eyes and tell them if the prediction doesn't come true, they owe me a million dollars.

(Edited for spelling)

__________________
Isn't the fact that they don't visit us proof that intelligent life is out there?

The Confused Philosopher - RCAF

[rant] Do you know what I'd like to see - the horoscope column from a New York newspaper for September 11, 2001! In fact, if anyone knows where I can find one please post a link, it's something to keep handy the next time someone starts talking to me about astrology. I'll just wave that in their face. [/rant]

As for Sedna, astologers will quickly pick up on whatever discovery astronomers make and incorporate it into their delusions without any hassle. Its not like astrology went into a big decline when Uranus, Neptune, Pluto and major asteriods were discovered. I wouldn't be surprised if some astrologers incorporate PX into their work.

lol this is just hilarious. Adding Sedna to the list of astronoical objects they account for just means that any horoscopes cast before the inclusion of Sedna were wrong.
Shouldnt they have been able to predict its existence from their off-target results #-o

Yes ... If astrology were a real science it should be possible to compare peoples charts with their actual characteristics and determine that additional objects are needed and at least roughly what the orbits of those objects are.

During World War I there was an attempt to do just that.

It was found that using a Solar System with 12 Planets worked best.

However, mostly that had to do with The Simple Fact, that there are 12 Houses.

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If you Ignore YOUR Rights, they Will go away.

Tensor
Thanks for your trouble in writing out the date information, it will come in useful. Thanks again.

Yes, my birthday falls in this time as well. Suddenly I feel a little special. Are we a fire, water, earth or air sign! (Or perhaps something else, Plamsa? Liquid crystal? Vacuum? And what's our symbol exactly?)

Another thing that I sometimes ask is why is your star sign determined by when you are born? What's actually special about that moment that it should shape the rest of your life. After all you've been alive for nine months already! (although dependant on your mother) Is it because no-one knows what date they were concieved therefore you cannot give an astrologer a starting point?


Exellent point. I'll have to remember that one.

This is another excellent point. There are many traits that astrologers use and all of the fit into a third if not half of the signs. You cannot fail to go wrong!
I'm getting annoyed again, :x I'd better go for a lie down.

In the back of my mind I'm sure I read that somewhere. 15 constellations along the ecliptic until there was an out with irrelevant/clearout/reassessment of the way the sky was mapped. We're talking a long time ago. 100+ years.
I could be getting my facts mixed up though.


Just come through from Madam Zeeta. :roll:
Taurus: And sometime toward the end of December you'll be receiving gifts from friends and family. A happy time.
Aries: Today a large planet will pass close to earth and cause all kinds of upset. This may put you in a bad mood but it will soon pass. The planet and the mood. Your money worries should ease.
Capricorn:...oh I just couldn't be bothered...

__________________
81.5% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

You're welcome. It wasn't a problem, as I try to fight nonsense where I find it also. Unfortunately, I noticed and error. The bolded items in my orignial post were changed and are now correct.

Well, I can't claim it anymore. My birthday (Nov 14) is now in Libra. But I still claim Ophiuchus because in the original signs and dates, that's where it was (and since it doesn't matter and screws people up, I love it.)

Well, Ophiuchus is the serpeant bearer, someone carrying a snake perhaps? As far as a sign, a black hole, cause no one sees us?

Yeah, and that's their out. They claim they need to know the exact time and very few people know the time of their birth and the time of their conception cannot be known.



That's a possibility, since the current boundaries were map about 60-80 years ago. I don't think anyone really know what the boundaries were in 100 BC, so I guess it would be possible to have 15.

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Some try to tell me, thoughts they cannot defend,... - Moody Blues.

Astrology is an insult to astronomy...

Only when people get the two confused. Otherwise, it pretty much exists entirely independant of it (aside from the names of things). By the same logic, card readings is an insult to blackjack, and palm readings are an insult to the glove industry. They're just crazy ideas that some people believe in, and many people get a kick out of.

Astrology isn't bad science. Not in the sense that all the other bad science talked about in these forums is, anyway. It's just one of those old "New Age" things, and an astronomical argument isn't going to show someone that it's wonky, just as a neurosurgion isn't going to disprove the existance of a soul. Science has nothing to do with it, good or bad, and thus can't prove or disprove it.

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"I'm making wheatloaf. It's like meatloaf, only with wheat"
"Isn't that just...bread?"

I like the idea of the serpant bearer. It's kind of heroic! :wink:
So if we're not Water, earth etc what are we?! I like the black hole idea, perhaps something like a singularity, where the laws of physics break down. (Laws of reason??)

My Birthday is 3rd December (same as Ozzy Osborne!) so I really am Ophiuchus.
But like Tensor says, you could just pretend to be to get the point accross.

As a final contribution to this debate I'll repeat the end of a conversation (when I say conversation I mean heated discussion!) I had with an astrology believer. (work colleague) He was a staunch christian as well so I'm not sure how these to systems would mix.
He suggested that minute fluctuations in Gravity produced by the relative distances of all the planets influence a baby when in the womb and then when it's born and cause it to live a certain life. After I stopped myself from laughing at him, the conversation continued:

Me: So what you're saying is that all the babies born right now, in this minute of time we're talking, will all grow up to have the same destiny, the same desires, the same money, love, work and personal ups and downs, regardless of there parents, nurture, country of origin, religious background, local culture, peer pressure etc etc, because we both know that isn't going to happen. How many babies are born every minute in all the countries of the world. Are they really all going to have the same destiny? I don't think so.

Him: Well obviously there will be variations in each individual, in each country depending on the outside influences you mentioned, and of course every personality is unique but...err...err

Me: Ah, I see. So therefore the desires and destiny of individuals without astrology is actually the same as the desires and destiny in individuals with astrology.

Him: Err...err...err...err I suppose so.

Me: Hmmmm! It's all becoming clear now. :roll:


I'm not sure if Astrologers have an explanation of how these damn planets actually do influence us. Is it Gravity or some other force we don't know about? (and could never know about.)

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81.5% of all statistics are made up on the spot.