"...nothing outside of Sitchin's book(s)."?? Why, Archer, you've read them?
I thought we were considering various astronomers' evidence for a perturber here, not "Sitchin's fantasy."
So... could there be a sort of resonance between Jupiter and Nibiru? It seems like Sedna is thought to have a certain resonance as well, but I'll have to verify that.

My mistake, I thought you'd remember this particular property of Nibiru, considering your "resume" with Sitchin threads and all.

My emphasis.

Sorry, Archer but you well know that "it hasn't happened" and you continue to ignore the "reality" of current observational evidence that lends itself to at least "speculation" on a planetary body like Nibiru.
So why so tearse?

... and we witnessed an "orbital modeller" which showed "no evidence of it's passage," BUT the modeller did not show "Nibiru" approaching from beneath the ecliptic, inclined, and passing somewhere near the Asteroid Belt, before turning and diving back down to the depths from whence it came. This is "Sitchin's Nibiru" and apparently would have most interaction with Jupiter.

Indeed. Who ever claimed Sedna's discovery "confirmed Sitchinism?"

What I mean is that one can either consider current findings by astronomers that most certainly suggest another planetary body is part of our system, and it could possibly be the "perturber" we've been looking for, as observational evidence for the likelihood of such a body. If Sitchin or PX were not an issue, I'd like to think "science" would arrive at the same conclusions based on what we're currently observing. Isn't that how science works?

Let's quit with the games A.DIM. We know, outside of your obsessed blatherings, exactly where to find Nibiru.Evidence? Did they find a perturber now? Oh, you mean more speculation. More words.About as likely as some sort of resonance between Nibiru and Nancy's Planet X Keep us updated, will ya? :wink:

Sorry, this is where you keep losing me. If this planet did actually exist then it would have to orbit the Sun, unless you are claiming that it passes through the area of the aseroid belt and continues on in it's orbit then heads on back through on the other side as it comes back. Of course that would give it an orbit of 7,200 years not 3,600 years because it would actually have to vist twice per orbit and this doesn't seem to be what you are claiming. From what I understand you are claiming that this planet has a more comet like orbit which then creates serious physics problems in how such a large mass can turn in such a sharp angle (though even with the long eliptical orbit passing twice through the asteroid belt this is still quite a problem.) The orbit of Senda is well away from the sun and so is affected by a rather weak gavity field, however the orbit that you propose (or appear to) is extremely close to the sun and as such on the angles it travels there is an extremely good case for it to be pulled into the sun itself.



Vianova, you still insist on calling this thing a Brown Dwarf. Get an astronomy book and learn. If the thing you claim as a Brown Dwarf is so, then all of our Gas Giants qualify as well.

If you are claiming that this thing is 5 times the Volume size of Jupiter, but only has 20-50 Earth masses, it still doesn't count as a Brown Dwarf because such things are determined by MASS not by equatorial radius. If you can't get the terms right, why should we bother listening to the rest of your arguement?

Add to this that such a planet at best (2 Jupiter Volumes and 50 Earth masses) would have a density of only 103 kg/m³. Compare this with water which has a density of 1027 kg/m³, Jupiter (1,314 kg/m³.) Even Saturn who density is extermely low for its components clocks in at 690kg/m³ nearly 7x what your mystery planet would be. As liquid Hydrogen has a density of 70 kg/m³ one would almost have to conclude that the entire planet was virtually this, or a substantial portion anyway. There is no way that that it could be a terrestial planet as claimed by others, and regardless, still would not be a Brown Dwarf.

[edited to fix a few typos]

__________________
Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran

Since Nibiru doesn't exist I ascribe no properties to it.Inserting snide remarks into my post is petty. Even for you. Grow up.Let's cut through the bullcrap here. There is no observational evidence for Nibiru. None. Zilch. Nada. To equate speculation regarding possible planets beyond Pluto's orbit with Nibiru's existence is nothing but wishful thinking. Since irrefutable proof of this planet is something beyond your ability to produce, I suppose you have to latch onto something. In this respect you have your head in the sand.

So many things to say...

1) A brown dwarf (or BD) in our solar system, in a bound orbit with our Sun, is completely contrary to all the evidence. Let's get our terms straight: a BD has a maximum of about 0.08 times the Sun's mass, and a minimum of about 0.01 times the Sun's. Jupiter's mass is 0.001 times the Sun's, and 314 times the Earth's. So an object would need thousands of Earth masses to be a BD, at least. So what you're talking about here is a planet mass, not a BD.

Mark Hazlewood and his ilk are the ones talking about a BD, and that is just plain silly. A BD in our solar system would be pretty bright in the infrared, and discovered ages ago.

2) What about a planet? Well, I read Matese and Murray, and found their papers to be interesting, but not terribly well supported. In fact, Murray's paper is under a lot of fire. It is likely he is simply wrong. Matese is on firmer, but by no means firm, ground.

3) McCanney is a crank. It's really that simple. His theories are contradicted by the most basic observations. I suppose it's getting to be time to write up a page about him. For example, meteor showers are known to be from comets; their orbits are not only correlated with comets, but the strengths of the showers can be predicted knowing comet orbits and their perturbations from planets. This directly contradicts McCanney's claims that comets grow in mass, not lose mass, as they orbit the Sun. Comets are seen to split, which contradicts his theory again. Probes were sent to Comet Halley, showing it was small, contradicting his theory. I could go on and on.

4) van Flandern is not a reliable source either. His association with the Naval Observatory was some time ago, and since then has proposed many theories which can be and have been shown to be grossly wrong. Try here to start.

5) Could there be a tenth planet in the solar system? Yes, and I have never denied that. But if so, it is not at all like what McCanney, Hazlewood, Lieder, Sitchin, or any other pseudoscientists claim. For one, it'll obey the laws of physics.

6) About Sedna: yes, the orbit is odd. But before we jump to a conclusion that defies six different laws of physics before breakfast, we should probably observe it for a while first. It's the first object seen that far out, and as we discover more we'll be able to understand their dynamics better.

More info will be forthcoming soon about Sedna soon, since there have been many observations of it since discovery (including Hubble images, which should be released soon, I expect.

And so few baseball bats....

Thanks for the back up BA. Unfortunately I doubt it will sink in after all I only told them this, what 3 times?

__________________
Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran

The response generally seems to be along the lines that astronomy's definition of a brown dwarf is flawed. The proposed woo-woo definition is usually whatever parameters fit the argument at that particular time.

__________________
Help! Marxist literary critics are following me!

](*,) Yeah we know that you invented the term. but you are wrong so we redefined it for you. :roll:

__________________
Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran

First a quick explanation of the title of this thread

Drs Marsden,Murray,Matese find Velikovskys Visionary PX

Tossing Velikovsky into the fray was meant to draw interest to the work of Murray , Matese , and Marsden.
and to this thread.

Also I want to pull in the Orbital Mechanics PhD-Dr P.
to comment on what is basically a cornucopia of orbital mechanics by Murray and Matese.
Dr P. feels Velikovsky was insane, and so do many here at BABB as well.

For Archer 17

"Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance."
Albert Einstein

All I can say is that you have a very narrow approach to the possibilities rendered forth by Murray, Marsden , amd Matese.
If these very scientists took your attitude , they would never investigate anything.
It is obvious that they are pursueing these ideas , because they KNOW
That something BIG is out there affecting the orbits of the comets at least..
What we dont KNOW, is the status of its orbit, or if it is a
Brown dwarf or huge Planet.
Stable orbit?
Nearly circular?
radically elliptical like Sedna?

Krill says
"What would cause a highly eccentric elliptical orbit to become less eccentric? "

Murrays
***a single massive object that deflected all of them
into their current orbits.{comets}
"..a large object in the extreme outer realms of the solar system may be gravitationally affecting the orbits of long-period comets."

this could make an orbit both more,
or less eccentric with successive passes near the
"single massive object"

Krill says
"And what would cause a "wobble like a giant knuckleball" to iron itself out over time?"

The original and more powerful solar gravitational influences, of our sun.

**************************************
Nibiru

The one thing Dr P. and I have actually agreed on in the past! is the whole mumbo jumbo on Nibiru, and its inhabitants.
The idea of a huge planet , swinging by full of giant Nibiruans, all super advanced in technologies , and visiting Earth when they swing by every 3600 years is a bit hard to swallow.
If they were so advanced , they could come and visit us all the time.They could leave their Godforsaken Nibiru and move to earth.
The only scenario I can possibly come up with for a Nibiru with lifeforms , would be a brown dwarf with a planet close enough to it , to be heated and lit as it is far out in space.
This planet could also be very large and have some possibilities of retaining heat in some fashion.
It could have an a.u. of possibly much less than 1 from the brown dwarf.
This type of planet may be similar to whats called Pegasi planets, though not identical.
Below are links to planets found ,pegasi planets , etc.

Ideas on these links that MAY lend validity to a brown dwarf with planet?
And Life?

http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0210/11planet/
First planet found orbiting close-in binary star
MCDONALD OBSERVATORY NEWS RELEASE
Posted: October 10, 2002

"Astronomers with the McDonald Observatory Planet Search project have discovered the first planet orbiting a star in a close-in binary star system.

The planet orbits 2 AU from the larger star in the Gamma Cephei system, while the secondary star is a mere 28-30 AU distant."



PLANETARY SCIENCE: Weather on the Pegasi Planets


binary system with planets that "may be ejected"


70 Virginis
magnitude: 4.97
This star, 78 light years away, lies on the border of the constellation Virgo. In January of 1996, Geoff Marcy and Paul Butler announced their discovery of a massive planet -- over six times the size of Jupiter -- orbiting 70 Virginis. The
***planet's surface temperature is estimated at 85 degrees Celsius, ***well within the range for liquid water. But the massive planet is likely a lifeless gas giant. If this alien world has moons, they may be more hospitable to life.

LINK

***The population of presently detected extrasolar planets indicates properties that were largely unexpected by theories developed to understand the solar system.

Some of the detected planets have short periods and very small orbital separations (``Pegasi-planets´´),
**and long-period planets have eccentricities up to nearly unity (like HD80606).
*What is the key difference between our system and others? What is the key parameter for the diversity of planetary systems in the galaxy? With angular momentum as a separator between binaries and planetary systems the aim of the splinter meeting is to look at the role of angular momentum in star/planet/brown dwarf formation as a possible key to understand the diversity of planetary and stellar systems.

LINK
******...and if you do the simple physics, one can see that a "habitable zone" exists around BOTH stars within the 3 AU dynamic "safe zone." Indeed, it could be possible that BOTH Alpha Cen A and B have planets conducive to life...."

" Another extra-solar planet has been discovered orbiting 16 Cygni B. But unlike all other previously known planets this one has a very large orbital eccentricity (0.6); its orbit carries it from a closest distance of 0.6 AU from its star to 2.7 AU. ***This calls into question many theories of planetary formation.

**Detecting extra-solar planets directly is very difficult. Even the Hubble Space Telescope wouldn't be able to image planets at the expected sizes and distances from their suns

On binary star systems with planets,
and why brown dwarves are hard to find,
and the missing mass of the universe

http://oposite.stsci.edu/pubinfo/pre...ases/95-48.txt

"The brown dwarf, called Gliese 229B (GL229B), is a small companion to the cool red star Gliese 229, located 19 light-years from Earth in the constellation Lepus.
** Estimated to be 20 to 50 times the mass of Jupiter,
GL229B is too massive and hot to be classified as a planet as
we know it,
**but too small and cool to shine like a star.
**At least 100,000 times dimmer than Earth's Sun, the brown dwarf is the
faintest object ever seen orbiting another star."

"If the dwarf formed as a binary companion,
***its orbit probably would be far more elliptical, as seen on most binary stars."

**"However, the orbital motion is so slow, it will take many
decades of telescopic observations before a true orbit can be
calculated."

"Astronomers have been trying to detect brown dwarfs for three decades.
**Their lack of success is partly due to the fact that as brown dwarfs age they become cooler, fainter, and more difficult to see."

"Another reason brown dwarfs were not detected years ago is that
imaging technology really wasn't up to the task,"

http://www.solstation.com/stars2/23librae.htm

"In 1999, astronomers announced the discovery of a Jupiter-like planet around this Sun-like star

Subsequent astrometric analysis, however, suggests that planet b may have as much as 34 times the mass of Jupiter

Brown Dwarfs or Planets?
Once the first brown dwarf candidates were actually found, however, astronomers realized that it was actually quite difficult to definitely rule on the validity of competing hypotheses about how a substellar object was actually formed without having been there.
***This problem is particularly difficult to resolve in the case of stellar companions, objects that orbit a star -- or two.

Berkeley astronomer Ben R. Oppenheimer,...would like to define a brown dwarf as an substellar object with the mass of 13 to 80 (or so) Jupiters. ...Therefore, stellar companions with less than 13 Jupiter masses would be defined as planets. "


WHite dwarf
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/darkmatter-00a.html

"A White Dwarf star, discovered in the constellation of Taurus, has been shown to be one of the coolest and therefore oldest white dwarfs ever found...The existence of such a population could partially explain the enduring mystery of the nature of dark matter in our Galaxy...
Astronomers have been searching for very cool white dwarfs for many years but with little success...
...and supports the claims from the theoreticians, that observers have simply been looking for the wrong kind of objects.
*** In fact, as much as 90% of the mass in our Galaxy may be hidden in the form of 'dark matter'."

"By measuring the duration of the brightening, astronomers get a ***crude measure of the mass of the otherwise invisible forgeround object"

http://www.holoscience.com/news/failed_star.html

NASA´s latest observatory, designed to see the most violent and stunning cosmic phenomena, captured something unexpected. The Chandra X-ray Observatory, orbiting in space about one-third of the way to the moon,
***saw the first-ever flare from what´s known as a brown dwarf, or failed star.

"We were shocked," said Dr. Robert Rutledge of the California Institute of Technology (Caltech) in Pasadena, CA, the lead author on the discovery paper to appear in the July 20 issue of Astrophysical Journal Letters. "

The energy emitted in the brown dwarf flare was comparable to a small solar flare, and was a billion times greater than observed X-ray flares from Jupiter.
The flaring energy is believed to come from a twisted magnetic field.
"This is the strongest evidence yet that brown dwarfs and possibly young giant planets have magnetic fields, and that a large amount of energy can be released in a flare," said Dr. Eduardo Martin, also of Caltech and a member of the team.

***Brown dwarves
http://chandra.harvard.edu/xray_sour...ndwarf_fg.html

their mass was too small for them to be stars and too large for planets.

***It is now estimated that brown dwarfs are approximately as numerous as normal stars in our galaxy.

http://www.bahnhof.se/~davidgr/browndwf/bd_def.html

***At the moment there seems to be no clear cut way of determining if an object is a large planet or a small Brown Dwarf.

Central Temperature By definition, the central temperature must be less than 3 million degrees, as that is the critical temperature required for substantial nuclear reactions to take place. The temperature is dependent on the mass, and will be lower for lower mass objects.

***Why are Brown Dwarfs important?

As you may know, one of the most important problems in cosmology/astrophysics just now is the problem of the so called
*** "Missing Mass".
Various observational and theoretical arguments can be used to show that we have only been able to identify about 10% of the mass of the universe.
***So where is the other 90%? One theory is that it is bound up in brown dwarfs, so the discovery of vast numbers of Brown dwarfs (or the discovery that there are very few Brown Dwarfs) would have great repercussions for cosmology.

Then,
this is a tough read , and the paper was rejected by the journal, however they felt it should get some internet play

http://www-users.york.ac.uk/~mmw1/

A refereed publication
"This report was received on 26th July 2000. While some of the points made could be challenged the major point was accepted."

"MA409 is about the formation of planets and brown dwarfs through Woolfson´s ´Capture Theory´, in which massive interstellar clouds are tidally disrupted and induced to fragment by encountering a compact star in a young stellar cluster

..the previous referee´s comments. First of all I cannot agree with the previous referee that we should not discuss alternative theories for planet formation as there is a standard model believed by most astronomers....
*** It is clear that our ideas of planet formation based upon one object, the solar system, needs some revision in the light of the newly discovered extrasolar planets and their unexpected locations close to their parent stars.

The discovery of extrasolar planets close to their primaries and the longstanding problem of producing Uranus and Neptune on a sufficiently short timescale has stimulated solar nebula theorists to look at various mechanisms for planetary migration...

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/as...s/980122c.html

"The high energy astronomers at NASA don't know much about this subject, so we asked an expert: Eric Mamajek of Pennsylvania State University:

The solar-like stars 16 Cygni B and 55 Cancri A have been found to have Jupiter-size extrasolar planets orbiting them. So we do have indirect proof, through Doppler spectroscopy methods (Marcy & Butler, SFSU, Lick Observatory), that planets indeed form in binary systems.

..solar-like stars Alpha Centauri A and B. They orbit each other at an average distance of 23 AU, however the eccentricities of each orbit bring them to as close to 11 AU and as far as 35 AU. Numerical simulations by Paul Weigert at University of Toronto have shown that each star has a "safe zone" about 3 AU in radius in which planets could safely survive for billions of years. Objects placed further out from each star than about 3 AU are dynamically ejected in a matter of millions of years or less...

***...and if you do the simple physics, one can see that a "habitable zone" exists around BOTH stars within the 3 AU dynamic "safe zone." Indeed, it could be possible that BOTH Alpha Cen A and B have planets conducive to life...."

http://www.universetoday.com/html/da...2001-1025.html

Nest of Brown Dwarfs found in Stellar Nursery
"...Ophiucus, is well known as a stellar nursery containing at least 100 newborn stars. But the surprise was in finding these brown dwarf stars
*which are usually too faint to notice."

Well, I don't feel that Velikovski was insane...just that he was very confused as to what constitutes reality. I mean he confuses hydrocarbons with carbohydrates. Doesn't that sound a bit confused??

SEARCHING FOR PX
in the southern hemisphere.

many people claim that PX or a brown dwarf only supposedly visible from the farthest southern reaches of this planet would have been found by now, with all the observatories in the southern hemisphere.

Dont forget Dr Browns
"...20% of the unexplored sky..." as well

Here are some notes on southern hemisphere observatories.

Mt Stromlo was the most perfectly located southern hemisphere observatory for viewing southern approach phenomena, positioned far better and closer to Antarctica than the Chilean or South African observatories

1.Even if there are many observatories capable of searching for a PX, or brown dwarf in the southern hemisphere, they have to be
TIME ALLOCATED to search for it.
Most observatories are on strict schedules for various universities and space agencies to accomplish a multitude of space search tasks.
Thus if they are not searching for PX as a primary target they will never see it, if it is there.

2.MOST of the southern hemisphere observatories
of major consequence
***ARE STILL UNDER CONSTRUCTION***

3.Infrared search is very limited and Mt Stromlo was to be a site for infrared search.
The ISO and SOFIA infrared are also under
TIME allocation restraints, i.e., if they arent directed to do a lengthy search, in the direction or possibilities of a PX or BROWN DWARF, then they will never find it as well

*****************************************
Southern hemisphere Observatories of note
...under construction

http://www.salt.ac.za/
official site for the largest telescope in the Southern hemisphere.
WELCOME to the Southern African Large Telescope (SALT) website.
Track the progress of the telescope being built.
***(SALT is due to be **completed in December 2004 with an estimated $30 million budget.)

http://www.eso.org/projects/alma/

6 November 2003: Astronomers Break Ground on Atacama Large Millimeter Array (ALMA) - World´s Largest Millimeter Wavelength Telescope.

Scientists and dignitaries from Europe, North America and Chile
***are breaking ground today (Thursday, November 6, 2003) on what will be the world´s largest, most sensitive radio telescope operating at millimeter wavelengths.

http://www.mso.anu.edu.au/~brian/press/

PLANS UNVEILED FOR THE NEW STROMLO
“Mt Stromlo is not just an icon of Australian science, it is the workplace of number of the world’s leading researchers,” Professor Chubb said.

***The planned redevelopment includes:
• The Advanced Instruments and Engineering Facility, which will replace the workshops destroyed in the blaze, offering expanded design and manufacture capabilities for precision optical instruments and a research and development program focusing on Extremely Large Telescopes

• A new robotically-controlled two-metre telescope, the Phoenix

• The world’s fastest sky-mapping telescope, the Skymapper, to be built at the ANU Siding Spring Observatory, but controlled from Mt Stromlo through a broadband link

http://www.visit-chile.org/activities/astronomy.phtml

The skies above the Andean foothills between La Serena and Copiapó are recognized as being the clearest in the southern hemisphere, a fact which has led the world´s great astronomical laboratories to construct giant observatories here.

The European Southern Observatory, representing a coalition of eight European nation, maintains La Silla Observatory and Paranal Observatory further north;
***here the ESO is busy at work on the last of four 8.2 meter telescopes which together comprise the Very Large Telescope (VLT).

The Cerro Tololo Inter-American Observatory, meanwhile, ***is constructing an 8 meter Gemini telescope near their current site. Las Campanas Observatory, owned by the Carnegie Institution of Washington, **is in the process of adding two 6.5 meter telescopes to their installations near La Serena.

For European and North American stargazers, a visit to the Southern Hemisphere can be truly disorienting. Orion appears on his head or side, Polaris can´t be seen at all, even the sun seems lost, following a course through the northern sky.

ON INFRARED ASTRONOMY

As far as I know the only one was in Mt Stromlo in the southern hemisphere for IRA

http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/vi...amp;highlight=
PHIL PLAITT
"I just received a letter from the American Astronomical Society about the fires that have swept Canberra in Australia, devastating the Mt. Stromlo observatory. This was one of the world´s premier astronomical research centers, and is now almost totally destroyed."

One of the astronomers who had to evacuate reported that the fire front approached the observatory at about 100 km/hour (62 miles/hour), leaving only about 5 minutes to get out. It is quite fortunate that there were no fatalities.

All of the telescopes were destroyed. The aluminum domes collapsed; the steel 74-inch dome remaind standing, but the building interior was gutted and the mirror "damaged beyond repair". The 50-inch mirror "is a pile of goo on the floor". The road to the laser ranging facility is blocked, but it did not likely survive.

***Sadly, the just completed "Near Infra-red Integral Field Spectrograph" valued at 4 million dollars, placed at Mount Stromlo...was destroyed

INFRARED Space Observatory

http://www.iso.vilspa.esa.es/images/iso002.jpg
Trippy picture !

http://sofia.arc.nasa.gov/
SOFIA
Stratospheric Observatory for Infra Red Astronomy
{aircraft mounted}

http://www.spitzer.caltech.edu/

...........................................
Additional curiousities from the Chilean site

Archaeoastronomy inquires about the possible relationship between astronomy and archaeological sites. We hope to awaken more interest in the subject in South America and share both experience and information with other groups.

According to one extended belief, the change of the cosmic era of Pisces to Aquarius, in addition to the passage to the new millenium, has brought with it a displacement of the terrestrial magnetic energy of the parallel 30º N to 30º S, from its previous location in the Himalayas of Tibet to the Elqui Valley in Chile.