Some of you are probably familiar with Jean-Louis Naudin's work.

I've long since wondered how practical his demonstration of a closed power loop with "water" for input and water vapor as exhaust was.

It seems the system does not run well enough to provide power to an external device, but with some optimization it seems like it could.

The page is here.
A RealPlayer video of this in action is here.

I've read in some other post that the amount of energy obtainable from water electrolysis is just less then the amount required to perform the seperation. So, I ask you, woowoo?

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"Do what now?"

I have seen the pictures.

As far as I understand, the engine provvides power for a power supply, which in turn provvides electricity for the electrolysis that yields the fuel for the engine.

My questions:
Besides running the engine, what else can this system do? And for how long can it do it?

As far as I have seen from Naudin's pages about the "lifter", the guy tends towards wishful thinking.
I would not rely on his interpretations of his experiments.

Apart from provviding an alternative fuel (water gives hydrogen and oxygen) for a commercial generator, I do not see any advantage over a fuel cell.

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papageno


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I don't see a closed system in the video. I see an open loop system, powered by an unseen external source of electric energy (i.e. battery to the left in the bushes, battery inside the welder, or power mains powereing the welder). Notice the welder is turned on before the generator is started. I don't see any physical electrical connection between the generator and the welder/power-supply.

I can guarantee that the amount of energy needed by the welder/power supply to run the electrolytic cell exceeds the amount of energy produced by the generator -- probably by 50% or more. If the loop could be closed I doubt it would run for more than a few seconds, and that is only due to the inertia in the generator.

I guess if you can't use gravity for perpetual motion, you use chemistry.

This is very rough, but:

To dissociate 2 molecules of water and form 2 molecules of hydrogen and 1 molecule of oxygen you must disrupt 4 O-H bonds then form 2 H-H and 1 O=O bonds. The bond energy of the O-H bond is about 460 kJ/mol. Bond energies for H-H and O=O are about 440 and 500 kJ/mol, respectively. So to break the water up you must ADD about 1840 kJ/mol energy to the system. When the H-H and O=O bonds form they GIVE OFF about (440)x2 + 500 = 1330 kJ/mol energy. The NET INPUT of energy to make hydrogen and oxygen from water is therefore about 250kJ/mol of water.

Now, just like gravitational energy, the Coulombic energy of the bond is reversible; the amount of energy INPUT needed to break the bond is the same as the amount of energy OUTPUT to form the bond. So if you burn hydrogen and oxygen to make water (either as straight inflammatory oxidation or under more controlled conditions like a fuel cell) you get back just the reverse of the above. In a PERFECT system with no loss (and there is always loss).

TANSTAAFL.

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If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers.

in a perfect system (no loss) gravity works that way too.

Its not quite that simple, theres the carbon at play also...

Naudin has perfected the art of giving as much data as possible about the experiment while hiding where it all falls down, to the level where it cant be considered accidental.

But hey, its not all bad... I wouldnt be here today without his damned lifters (which i havent built... yet, will do that one day enclosed in a glass jar placed on my bookshelf, to woowoo my friends a bit )

If you introduced a catalyst that was able to lower the disociation energies then you might be able to make it work, but that's a big if.

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A catalyst can lower the activation energy (kinetics, rate) but it can't change the total energy difference (thermodynamic).

Oh, would that you could...

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If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers.