I assume that most of you have heard of or seen my article in the May 2004 issue of Sky and Telescope, where I talk about how to debunk nonsense like astrology, the Moon hoax and UFOs.

Well, the other side has spoken! Evidently, Very Big UFO Guru Stanton Friedman has taken issue with my comments about UFOs. I can't wait to see what he writes in the MUFON journal! I'd like to see how he refutes my claim that amateur astronomers should see the most UFOs.

__________________
Phil Plait
The Bad Astronomer
http://www.badastronomy.com
badastro@badastronomy.com

I assume the preceding sentences to your quote, Phil, were along the lines of "Amateur astronomers do the most looking at the sky..." It's very easy to claim illogic if you remove all premises leading to a conclusion.

I love how he says nothing and then the one thing he does say makes no sense. But hey, could be worse, he could be peddling a moon hoax agenda and not "just" a UFO one!

__________________
Yes, I have a life. It's quite different from yours.

oh yes, all the astronomers get together every blue moon and say "ok guys, like last time, we're all going to deny the fact that we've seen all those ufos...anyone who breaks this pact will be sentenced to a life of cloudy nights and floppy reasearch papers..got it?" honestly...i've been to those meetings..it's true

...
:^o
...

__________________
Cold be hand and heart and bone
Cold be travellers far from home
They do not see what lies ahead
When sun has failed and moon is dead

There is a standard argument trotted out by UFO (UAP?) proponents in respect of the lack of sightings by astronomers, amateur or professional.

It goes something like: "Ah, but they only focus their equipment on tiny fragments of the night sky!"

These tiny fragments are, of course, fairly substantial in astronomical terms, but I believe they have a point. Astronomers focus on far-out stuff, so it is not unfeasible - in fact it is probable, surely? - that they can miss more localised activity.

Personally I think that pilots are probably best positioned to witness anomalous aerial phenomena. And funnily enough...

http://www.narcap.org

Well, the amatuer astronomers don't spend all their time looking into the eyepiece. I imagine they spend a lot of time just gazing at the nighttime sky.

__________________
Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.

Fair point, but the NARCAP stuff is not easily explained away...

Interesting reverse pyschology.....

From.... here

:roll:

[/url]

__________________
Lighten up! This is a stellar board!

Me too!

This could be fun...

*staying tuned*....

I can verify as fact that amateur astronomers spend a great deal of time just gazing at the sky. The time spent looking through an eyepiece during a typical night of stargazing is relatively small. Much of the remaining time is spent just looking around and taking our surroundings. Even when we're not out on a planned stargaze we are still usually very aware of the sky, both day and night.

Like Phil I have always used the argument that, if UFOs were real, amateur astronomers would be one of the groups most likely to be reporting them. Amateurs are not reporting them because (1) they do not exist, and (2) astronomers are familiar with the types of things and phenomenon normally seen in the sky that lead to false reports.

I've seen this Friedman guy quite a bit on TV and he is definitely woo woo. I'm interested to hear what he comes up with.

What are the figures showing that there are more sightings at night rather than in the day? In order to make the claim that astronomers would even be in the right place at the right time to see more UFOs, wouldn't you need that information?

What's your opinion of Bernard Haisch?
http://www.ufoskeptic.org/

Phil, I'm assuming that the UFO's you're refering in the title of this thread are Unsubstantiated Friedman Objections. :wink:

__________________
Some try to tell me, thoughts they cannot defend,... - Moody Blues.

Neptune- The original Dark Matter.

The author feels that this technique of deliberately lying will actually make it easier for you to learn the ideas. - Donald Knuth

What would motivate an amateur or professional astronomer to report UFOs, knowing that they'd be immediately labeled "woo woo"? Why would they want to commit professional suicide if that's the reception that's going to harm their careers?

Or are there specific situations under which you'd take a UFO report by an astronomer seriously?

Do you have any quantifiable information that shows astronomers look at the sky more than farmers, lobstermen, crossing guards, or fire tower lookouts? Or is this just opinion that can't be substantiated?

Well, it is practically a truism. On the one hand, you could call just about anyone who spends a significant protion of the night looking at the sky an amateur astronomer. But that may be a semantics game. However, I think it is a fairly safe assumption that amateur astronomers spend more time looking at the night sky than people in those other categories that would not consider themselves amateur astronomers. Do you have any reason for thinking that crossing guards have logged more hours collectively than amateur astronomers?

__________________
Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.

Do you have any reason for thinking that UFOs are seen only at night?

They aren't. A lot are, but some have been seen during the day.

__________________
Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran

Nope. But I was containing myself to the nighttime activities. If we speak, for a second, only of night sightings, would you agree with me? Then we could open the box back up and discuss both night and day sightings. In that case, I would certainly think that less amateur astronomers would be out viewing during the day than at night.

__________________
Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.

Well, I would say the majority are. No I don't have any hard facts, but most descriptions I've seen on UFO's mention lights, which can be seen easier, and over a longer distance at night.

__________________
Some try to tell me, thoughts they cannot defend,... - Moody Blues.

Neptune- The original Dark Matter.

The author feels that this technique of deliberately lying will actually make it easier for you to learn the ideas. - Donald Knuth

Also, the original article (essay?) that started this thread was the BA talking about night sightings and that amateur astronomers would be pretty likely, as a group, to have a higher incidence of UFO sightings than 'normal,' but that this doesn't appear to be happening.

__________________
Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.

Or is it more self-serving than self-evident? I honestly don't know what the figures are comparing day to night sightings -- but I wouldn't make any claims as to who is more likely to see UFOs and when without the data to back it up.

I don't think you understood my point. Basically, if you count anyone who spends a significant amount of time staring at the night sky as amateur astronomers, then...

But if you want to talk about day sightings, that is a different questions. One which I wasn't addressing at the time. If I cared enough, I guess I could try to find out the ratio of day sightings to night sightings. However, since the original quote from this thread comes from an article discussing nighttime sightings, I don't think I'll bother.

__________________
Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.

Amateur astronomers are not professional astronomers; they make their living in any one of a thousand ways just like everyone else. The threat to their careers would be no different than it would be to Joe factory worker because they may very well be Joe factory worker.

Of course there are no statistics that says how often someone looks at the sky, but I do know from first hand experience that amateur astronomers do take a keen interest in the sky in general. As I have already said, they tend to be interested in all sorts sky and atmospheric phenomenon, including daytime phenomenon. They also tend to spend a lot of time looking skyward to check on the weather. I am in no way implying that there are not other people who look to the sky with regularity, but I think I can say with reasonable certainly that amateur astronomers do so with far greater frequency than 'most' other people.

You also neglected to note the second part of my post. That is, amateur astronomers know the sky and understand the strange phenomenon that can sometimes be observed. I have seen several strange things in the sky but I didn't start screaming UFO. I understood what I was seeing, thus it was 'identified'. To someone else (such as farmers, lobstermen, crossing guards, or fire tower lookouts) that strange sighting may have ended up as a UFO report.

Awright! It's Plait vs Friedman for all the marbles in a steel cage match refereed by George Noory!

I got front row seats already reserved, I got a 25% stake in the soft drink supply company, and I own the popcorn concession...

Semi-seriously, I can see this one working its way across the nation's airwaves on CoastToCoastAM...

__________________
"If a tree is cut down in the rainforest, and is used to make paper to print a book, and the book is really bad, and there's nobody that will read it, do you still hear a sucking sound?"
Charlie in Dayton, A.AsC.

Don King in Dayton?

Having only recently got into actual observing (cos I bought a telescope) I can safely say that my time spent looking up while outdoors has increased by a LARGE factor. Most of my non interseted friends (in astronomy) look at the TV not at he sky. My time spent outdoors has also increased so overall I look at the sky about 100 times more than I used to. Basically I hardly looked up before.

The other thing to note is that I know what to expect up in the sky so am far less surprised by bright objects appearing at various times (jupiter/mars/venus). Most people don't even realise the sky changes from hour to hour! No joke here, I've had to explain it many times.

So, in a nutshell I'd have to agree with Mr BA himself on this front. Of course the sceptics would have disagree since many amateur's also have quality camera's with them. If they agreed that they should even have a remote chance of seeing them then there would be photographs using precision instruments that would have proven their existance long ago. That's why they MUST argue that amateur's would be the least likely to see UFO's. It wouldn't make sense any other way.

Another point, when someone with a telescope see's something unusual they point it at the object. Oops, it was only a balloon or a plane or a planet. Without a telescope it's anything you wnat to beleive it is, not what it really is.

Regards,

__________________
MrObvious

MrObvious made pretty much the same post I was going to. That won't deter me however. I have worked nights for most of the last 18 years, largely outdoors and I have never seen a UFO. Statistics? Ok, I'm a statistic I guess. Since I got a telescope I do look up to the sky more often. If nothing else, to see if it's scope weather or not. I even saw the Hubble cruise over one night because I just happened to be looking up, seeing how clear it was. Non-stargazers may see these and not know what they are. Some may even report a UFO. Me, I just went and checked J-Track and found the Hubble happily cruising out over the Gulf.

Astronomers are simply more interested in what's up there and as a result, have more sky watching time than other folks. To deny that without hard data is just being hard headed.

As far as I know, most unsolved UFO reports are at night. Those from the daytime usually consist of a picture or two of a hubcap on a string or something. The night time ones are mostly mysterious lights and would probably be dismissed by an experienced observer.

I used to believe in aliens and flying saucers (also the Bermuda Triangle and Atlantis, woo woo!!) but after all this time working at night, I say what Archie Bunker said. When one lands in Times Square and they show it on the TV, I'll believe in them.

__________________
You're a coward and a liar and a thOOF - Bart Sibrel

All amatuer astronomers sign an agreement not to mention any UFO sightings. You have to fill one out every time you purchase a telescope, and you can only share your telescope on UFO prohibited nights.

__________________
jwj

It's a big universe out there...is it really unwinding, really burning out?

Jeez Jerry, you should know better than to post this. You obviously forgot about the non-disclosure paragraph on the agreement. :wink:

__________________
Some try to tell me, thoughts they cannot defend,... - Moody Blues.

Neptune- The original Dark Matter.

The author feels that this technique of deliberately lying will actually make it easier for you to learn the ideas. - Donald Knuth

What about those of us who make a telescope on our own? Are we left out?

.... grinding, grinding, grinding ....

__________________
"We do not require reality to conform to the expectations of the ignorant"

I wasnt asked to sign one when i bought a telescope... I think it has something to do with mind reading device they used to determine if im open minded enough to be likely candidate for visitation, apparently i failed and was considered harmless. Same goes for those telescope builders as well i suppose.