Cousin Bill;

Your "for all practical purposes" statement is a cop-out. You can decide what is practical for you, but you can't make the same decision for everyone. To some, it is a matter of questioning their faith. So to know, once and for all, of the existence of ETI may be a real big deal even though that question may be completely empty to you.

You also fail to take into account the difference between "contacting" and "observing" when you argue "practical purposes". I can "observe" the IIS passing overhead so I know it exists, but I certainly don't have the ability to "contact" it, or invite it over for dinner next Tuesday. The same would hold true of ships at sea, or air liners. I can observe them easily, but contact "for all practical purposes" is well beyond my capability.

But your argument states that even if we were to be able to "observe" evidence of ETI that we could in no way ever contact, then they still don't exist. That's silly.

Here is an example:

We make an "observation" of evidence of ETI that originated from, say, 50,000 light-years away. We reply. That is a 100K light-year round trip, and by the time our reply reaches them, the civilization is long dead. So no "contact" is ever possible. Now you have absolute proof of ETI. Whether or not we can contact it doesn't matter. "Practical purposes" doesn't matter. It's just the "question" that matters.

-Cousin Lance

__________________
Home of the Illumi-Llama:
The Illuminati-R-Us Forums

My opinion is that many extraterrestrial civilizations exist, and it is possible to contact them through electromagnetic waves, but we are simply looking at the wrong places. There is no rule that says alien minds think the same way as human minds. I also believe that civilizations die after a short while (few get past 1,000 years). Of course, this is a fairly mainstream opinion and could very well be wrong.

8-[ Okay then.

I am glad your crystal ball is working, mine hasn't been.

I wonder if I am better of just letting your message lie.

This is a mainstream opinion by whom? Roswell residents?

Tell me, how is such a contact practical? How would it benefit us in any way?

The great benefit of finding a new culture is cultural exchange.

Also, if anything, contact with ETI should employ the scientific method. The scientific method is the conceptual process of organizing empirical facts and their inter-relationships in a structure of theories and inferences. It is the philosophical ideal of how scientists advance scientific knowledge by methodically and systematically applying procedures that reduce the likelihood of alternative explanations for their observations. The underlying principles are skepticism (an attitude of doubt toward and suspended judgment of statements, even when made by great authorities, prior to analyzing the underlying evidence and assumptions), determinism (the principle that all natural phenomena are caused previous events linked by fundamental physical laws that are the same everywhere in the universe) and empiricism (the practice of relying on observation and experiment for developing an understanding (theory) of natural phenomena). If any observation is made just once, then the scientific method cannot be employed because of the 4 steps involved in The Scientific Method:

1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena.

2. Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena. In physics, the hypothesis often takes the form of a causal mechanism or a mathematical relation.

3. Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations.

4. Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters and properly performed experiments.

It is because of this 4th step that part of the SETI project requires that a signal repeats itself.

A brief encounter would not repeat itself.

As someone who believes and supports SETI and yet someone who insistes that a brief encounter would be a good thing, you contradict yourself.

Like debating biblical fundamentalists about 4 legged insects in Leviticus (which don’t exist according to scientific observation), I get the feeling you are just grasping at the ether, Lance.

Are we alone? For now, we are. Whether we stay that way is partly out of our hands. We can always put forward the effort to look, but that's no guarantee there's something out there to be found.

That does not for one minute make less important the search. Sometimes the best goals are the ones that aren't immediately successful. Sometimes, its not wrong to dream while awake.

As to whether there's really life out there, I look at a few other things in the universe we once accepted as axioms and see how new discoveries rewrite them on a daily basis and I am reminded that what we believe to be true today based on speculation may be so far off the mark in reality that everything we thought we knew is rendered meaningless.

__________________
The last time I felt a warm fuzzy feeling, I was informed by my doctor that it was just gas.

Do you think it's better to listen to their signals, or actively announce that we are here?

Since we are already announcing that we are here by radio and TV signals, your question is mute

Cousin Bill,

You mis-quote me. I never said a "brief encounter" would be a good thing. I said "proof". Now move along and don't argue that with me too.

The problem Bill, is your "belief" that SETI supporters and those not so closed minded to the possible existance of ETI "believe" in ET. It's nothing of the sort. Those who "believe" in ET do so with no evidence at all, and are generally kooks.

I think the general consensus among readers here is more along the lines of:

• ETI may exist
  It would be nice if it did
  It may not
  But without proof either way, I just don't know
  Bill Thompson is a "woo woo"

No one else here is getting frustrated that you don't agree with them. Why are you getting your panties in such a bunch that some people don't agree with you?

-Cousin Lance

__________________
Home of the Illumi-Llama:
The Illuminati-R-Us Forums

I'm sorry I can't find or remember the exact quote, but Stephen Hawking said something along the lines of:

"Any extraterrestrial civilization we encounter may be far in advance of our own. Since primitive cultures on our own planet generally don't benefit from contact with more advanced cultures, we may do well to just keep our heads low."

Again, that's not an exact quote, but it certainly conveys the meaning.

If we ever were to encounter an advanced ET civilization, I think it's just as likely that we could be exploited as educated.

Yes Bill, this you got right.

__________________
Home of the Illumi-Llama:
The Illuminati-R-Us Forums

How would a brief encounter be proof? That is now how science works. There are lots of brief encounters, like the Travis Walton insident. But the Travis Walton insident is not proof. Check out James Randi's web site about that. In fact, if I were you, I would study it a little.

You seem to think I believe what I do because I want to or because I choose to. Nothing is further from the truth. The fact is I want to believe there is ETI and for the longest time, I did believe that there must be ETI.

It is a common misconception since at least 99.999% of the people on this planet cannot divide fact from suposition.

Belief ought not be a choice.

This is a common expression that makes no sense to me: "well, you can believe what you want to."

I got into a huge debate with my Nigerian neighbor about a number of consparacy theories. After a long session debunking his ideas he threw that at me: "well, you can believe what you want to."

I replied, "no, if you can show me evidence contrary to what I believe then it is my obligation to believe that you are right.

So, show me evidence contrary to what I believe then it is my obligation to believe that you are right, Lance.

(by the way, what is a wo wo?)

It would NOT be. Like I've been saying. ](*,)

Why don't you just read my .sig. It pretty much covers this whole debate.

__________________
Home of the Illumi-Llama:
The Illuminati-R-Us Forums

This links to why we are alone is a good post


If we use radio waves to contact another race this means that they must use radio waves also, we have been beaming out UHF , Radio, microwave and other signals now. For the last 50 years our strong radio has beamed into space, if aliens can get this signal and understand it what are the chaces that aliens will be more advanced. I say 98% chance because we've been doing this for only a few decades. Life in space seems like a wonderful subject but think about it, if aliens knew we are here why would they want to contact a primitive race, we destroy the rainforest, pollute the earth, kill each other with anthrax, make other clever lifeforms like Whales Birds into paths of extinction,

Mankind has done some wonderful things and made many things happen, but we have also done very bad things, this is what we have done which is not noble or wonderful


If aliens knew humans were here, Would aliens want to contact such a race, a race which has made wars? A people which puts toxins in the sea, the humans which cut down the tress, we the human race have used atomic weapons on our own people...

It is a good thing you are not a prosecution attorney.

But, seriously, although this is true it is not the subject of this thread. Absence of any reasonably near-by habitat for life is evidence of absence of life at any reasonable proximity.

And you seem to think I CARE what you believe. The real question is; why do you care what I believe? You made a good case for yourself, supported by good arguments. I, however, choose to keep more of an open mind. That does NOT mean I "believe" in ETI. It only means I am unwilling to rule out the possibility.

You have been demonstrating this for some time now. Yes, we know.


Could one of the regulars here please explain to my Cousin Bill what a woo woo is? I am new here, and am only vaguely familiar with the term.

BELIEF: 1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing (synonym: see in addition OPINION)

Trust? Confidence? Opinion? Bill, belief is BY DEFINITION a choice. When you become "obliged to believe" then you have crossed over into "knowing". There is a difference. Let me give you an example:

Right now, I "believe" that you are what they refer to here as a "woo woo". However, I do not "know" that you are due to my unfamiliarity with the term. When someone answers this one way or the other, I will then "know" that you either are, or are not a "woo woo". And once I "know", belief no longer plays a role. Follow?

__________________
Home of the Illumi-Llama:
The Illuminati-R-Us Forums

__________________
"We need to get back into that Saturn V world mentality."
Gene Cernan -- Commander Apollo 17

*sigh*

But since we only have the absence of EVIDENCE of any reasonably near-by habitat, the rest of the statement fails.

We do NOT know Mars is not still now a habitat. Or Europa. And someone now is even talking about Venus again possibly being a habitat. Due to further study on the oceanic thermal vents.

__________________
Home of the Illumi-Llama:
The Illuminati-R-Us Forums

But this is a belief based on mathematical weights of an equation. The Drake Equation. I have spelled out weights of this equation and provided links. By weights I mean multiples to constants in a defined function, by the way.

Please provide links to real credible scientist who say there are habital regions TODAY on Mars and Venis.

I follow you make statements before they are well-thought-out.

Here is another weight to the equation I just remembered. According to the BBC broadcast of "The Plants" (see. Lance, I cite my sources. This is what people do when making a point) We owe our existence (also) to the large giant outer planets. Jupiter acts like a gravitational vacuum cleaner taking the vast majority of hits from comets and other vogue objects. If not for the giant planets in our solar system, life would not have gotten a very long running.

That is number 11 when I get around to adding to the origional list at the start of this thread

I don't know if there is anywhere habitable in our solar system, there has always been a question about places like Titan and Europa, but there is also an idea about mars and now an idea about the cloud tops of venus. Some say its impossible for life outside Earth.

I have made a post about this topic in the life beyond Earth thread

here's what I wrote on the subject

I have heard from credible sources that life today on Mars is not possible since it was when Mars mysteriously had a denser atmosphere that water flowed there. And the last mission on Venus showed that not only is there not life on Veins but the voyage revealed that Venus's surface recycles every 100 thousand years or so into hot magma. There is an interesting story about a cult that disbanded in California after this information was released since the cult was founded on the notion that human beings were from Venis.

I think they meant...uh...nevermind

I should have followed Chip's logic long ago.

You really, truly don't get it and arguing with you is pointless.

For your reference:

Origin of term "woowoo"

The Woo Woo Credo

__________________
Home of the Illumi-Llama:
The Illuminati-R-Us Forums

I have to say, considering the source, I take that as a compliment.

Lance, I was waiting and hoping to get your sources for your opinion that life might exist on Mars and Venus. It is more than a little suspicious and reveiling that you do not provide them.

My position and opinion is based on science and mathematics. What is your position based on, Lance?

How many rules of logic have you broken?

and especially

I looked into this woo-woo thingy and I got this:



Aw, did I pop your balloon, Lance. I am so sorry!

Without a logical leg to stand on, you have resulted in juvenile attacks. Who is the woo woo?

This is a web site dedicated to science. What are your sources that life might be in Mars and/or Venus?

Let me guess. You are not going to tell me because I have hurt your feelings.

------

Update!

Lance, I looked up the woo woo credo. As Pee Wee Herman used to say, The Woo Woo Credo fits you to a T.

Lance, that is YOU. My explainations of why we are, for all practical purposes, alone in the Universe is very simple and stright-forward. It is you that have a desire to spin off on some sort of pseudo science about how life might be on Venus.


Lance, that is YOU. This, Dr. Platt's web site, is dedicated to debunking thrill seeking Hoax Believers and pseduo-science mumbo- jumbo that stretches reality to the breaking point. Check out what Phil Platt says about the worms of Mars and the Martian Bunny. It is not far from the ideas you have about Mars and Venus.

Lance, that is YOU. I have tried to respond to every querie you have presented and yet you do not answer my direct questions at all.


Lance, that is YOU. In fact in either this posting or in the emails you have sent to me I distinctly recall you using these exact words, "closed-minded".

Freudian slip.



Human beings really DO come from “venis” (not Venus). Let me explain as far as the censors will allow. It is the V…’enis. As comedian, Robin Williams says, we all come from there and he finds that he spends most of his life trying to go back.



I sure hope Phil lets me keep this message. I think it is pretty unintentionally funny. Kind of like that whole "Uranius" running joke.

I don't HAVE sources. I don't HAVE an opinion.

My position is that I DON'T KNOW.

And I quite frankly, I don't care what YOU think.

(edited for temper)

__________________
Home of the Illumi-Llama:
The Illuminati-R-Us Forums

Cursing isn't allowed on this board, Lance. I strongly recommend you delete it. (or edit it for language).

I let it get to me, just like I said I would not do.

Sorry.

It's been fixed.

__________________
Home of the Illumi-Llama:
The Illuminati-R-Us Forums