My fault, that should be Hayward CA

__________________
They call 'em fingers, but i've never seen em fing..... oh there they go!! otto

That's better. Got it now. Be patient a day or two till I find the time...

__________________
______________________________________________
“He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask a question remains a fool forever”
Chinese proverb
"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence - and then success is sure." - Mark Twain.

Ok, here's mine. And if there is anyone who wants to act as control for the experiment, I'll PM that person as long as I believe they can be trusted not to slip the info to anyone - Just verify or deny what comes up.

Lat-Long:
42° 54' 0" , -78° 51' 55"
42.9002 , -78.8655

5/01/52 5:15AM EST

__________________
---------------------------
"Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter neccessitatem."
William of Occam

Worm Hunter / Bounced Check,
I will do one as a test. Bounced Check first made the offer but Worm Hunter reacted quicker in providing data. Could you two agree on which of the two I should do? Thanks

__________________
______________________________________________
“He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask a question remains a fool forever”
Chinese proverb
"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence - and then success is sure." - Mark Twain.

it doesnt matter me, go ahead and do bounce first.

__________________
They call 'em fingers, but i've never seen em fing..... oh there they go!! otto

I will defer to Worm Hunter. But I do call for the other readers to please tell me who could be best used as the "control" for this test. Someone who can be PM'd with a small write up of each subject so that the data can be revieled from a third party.

What kind of information should this test produce?

__________________
---------------------------
"Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter neccessitatem."
William of Occam

OK. As to agreeing to what kind of information the test should produce, all I can offer is a verbal character analysis. Is that OK?

__________________
______________________________________________
“He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask a question remains a fool forever”
Chinese proverb
"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence - and then success is sure." - Mark Twain.

Here is a small example:

Intellect
- very original, innovative, intuitive thinker
- good instinct for trends
- talented in getting a "bird's eye" view of things, not interested in details
- careful not to be too conceited
- does not like routine work
- might overly analyze your emotions
- conversational style is overly emotional. Too easily offended, careful not to hurt others verbally.

__________________
______________________________________________
“He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask a question remains a fool forever”
Chinese proverb
"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence - and then success is sure." - Mark Twain.

gzhpcu, you have fallen for the Forer effect.

__________________
~~ ><>><> ~~ ><,,> ><,,> ...`;=;p d;=;' /\/\^/\ ^^ ^/\/\_
Democracy Now! - The lost art of investigative news reporting.

A better test would be to describe the person and try to determine the birth month. You could make a list up, gzhpcu. We could each answer yes or no to the listed items if it applied to us or not. Then see if you can guess our sign.

__________________
~~ ><>><> ~~ ><,,> ><,,> ...`;=;p d;=;' /\/\^/\ ^^ ^/\/\_
Democracy Now! - The lost art of investigative news reporting.

Fair enough if you think so. If others feel the same, then no sense in continuing with the test... How about it Worm Hunter, Balanced Check? Shall I forget about it?

__________________
______________________________________________
“He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask a question remains a fool forever”
Chinese proverb
"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence - and then success is sure." - Mark Twain.

Sorry, you have not read my posts. I can not guess a "sign". This is not about tabloid sun-sign astrology. I explained it entails analysis of all planetary positions, including the moon, etc. etc.

__________________
______________________________________________
“He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask a question remains a fool forever”
Chinese proverb
"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence - and then success is sure." - Mark Twain.

But that's just it: you should, in theory, be able to take a description of someone, extrapolate, and be able to figure out where the planets had to have been to create that specific personality. Granted there are a lot of variables, but by the sound of it natal astrology already has the Solar System modelled and ready to go.

Thanks Taibak, that would be my answer as well.

So let's set up a different challenge, gzhpcu. Make your list of personality traits. We can still mark yes and no. Then everyone can PM me with their BD and places. I will post them as a blind list and you see if you can match a BD and place to any list results.

__________________
~~ ><>><> ~~ ><,,> ><,,> ...`;=;p d;=;' /\/\^/\ ^^ ^/\/\_
Democracy Now! - The lost art of investigative news reporting.

Sorry, too many variables:

10 planets in signs
10 planets in houses

planetary aspects (angles) among each other (these differ from horoscope to horoscope but vary from 30 to 60 angles)

midpoint analysis (another 30 -40 parameters).

None of you have obviously ever looked into natal astrology, so you do not have an idea as to the complexity of the whole framework. I find it odd to criticize something without even taking time to look into just because your mind is made up a priori.

There are no two horoscopes alike (except for identical twins). No way for your test to work.

"Be skeptical" but first inform yourselves about what we are talking about to begin with.

I also happen to have a life and do not want to waste my time doing something nobody is interested in, in the first place.

To repeat: I can do a natal horoscope as described above. If this is not considered satisfactory, OK with me, let's just terminate the thread here.

__________________
______________________________________________
“He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask a question remains a fool forever”
Chinese proverb
"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence - and then success is sure." - Mark Twain.

I know "natal astrology" is fake. That what the lady with the gold tooth at the tarot card reading service told me.

__________________
A person's name, or a mark representing it, as signed personally or by deputy, as in subscribing a letter or other document.

10 planets, eh? Is there something you'd like to tell us here? Perhaps related to (gasp!) astronomy? 8)

__________________
A person's name, or a mark representing it, as signed personally or by deputy, as in subscribing a letter or other document.

Good point, and to be fair, one should research the data before making an argument. In the case of astrology however, it's pretty easy to make sense of what it is not without needing to research any further.

I may not know exactly what this type of astrology is that you're talking about, but I do know that the planets have no relation to our personalities or our daily lives. Do you really think that ancient astrologers know more about us than we do today?

It really all comes down to relation. How do we relate ones personality or characteristics based on the position of say, Jupiter's orbit? How do astrologers know how a person will turn out based on planetary alignments? Lets go a little deeper into this subject.

Earlier you gave an example as to how the characteristics of a person can be predicted through your methods of calculation. You also mentioned that every one of these predictions is unique to each person. Ok, fair enough. These predictions however are extremely generalized and can be applied to nearly everyone on the planet depending the mood they're in at the time of reading the prediction. If I feel like a butthole today, then I may not believe that I'm a kind and considerate person, but on other days I very well may be.

Generalizing predictions goes way back, and apparent psychics have been using this method to form their predictions for centuries. The good thing about generalizing, is that it's hard to have your predictions proven wrong. That's why they do it.

Also, just because something entails a great deal of analysis, doesn't mean it's rational or makes sense. I can analyze the clouds and make out the shape of a purple flying elephant. That doesn't mean that purple flying elephants exist, just that I was able to analyze something, and make out details that otherwise wouldn't be there.

__________________
Obedience brings victory
Victory is life
That is the order of things

Forgive me for saying so, but....

If this is an example of the type of results one gets from a "natal astrology" reading, (sorry, I don't know how else to say it. ), then I, for one, am not that impressed. There seem to be a lot of "generalizations" used in this "example". Of what use is this "tool", if it cannot be specific??

edited to add...oops, I just saw where dvb basically says the same thing...ops:

__________________
"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

If I give the same data (birth date and time, location etc.) to 10 astrologers, will I get 10 identical results from them and if not why not?

__________________


The meek will inherit the earth ... the rest of us will go to the stars.

Yep...and I've seen nothing in this "natal astrology" to convince me that it's any different from generalized predictions.

gzhpcu...if we're wrong about this, then show us how we're wrong. But don't keep saying that we "need to study it", because we don't. If it "works" you should be able to demonstrate it to us to our satisfaction. IOW...we don't have to prove you're wrong, you have to prove you're right.

__________________
"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

Another question for you, gzhpcu, while test rules are worked out. How particular to time and location of birth is natal astrology? While I can pinpoint the lat. and long. of the hospital in which I was born, I don’t know the time of day. How does this situation affect the results of your description?

__________________
Living on Earth may be expensive, but it includes an annual free trip around the Sun.

The astrologers consider the sun as a planet...

__________________
______________________________________________
“He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask a question remains a fool forever”
Chinese proverb
"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence - and then success is sure." - Mark Twain.

You are wrong R.A.F. I do not have to "prove" anything at all. I am not out to convince anybody. In the other thread you brought up the subject and I stated my opinion.

__________________
______________________________________________
“He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask a question remains a fool forever”
Chinese proverb
"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence - and then success is sure." - Mark Twain.

If you do not know the time of day about 10 parameters can not be taken into consideration.

__________________
______________________________________________
“He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask a question remains a fool forever”
Chinese proverb
"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence - and then success is sure." - Mark Twain.

You know what guys, I am out of this thread. Instead of having a normal discussion, all I get is snide remarks. Forget it. Don't need this. As I said, I am not out to prove anything at all. I offered my help to conduct a test, that is all. Thought I was doing you guys a favor. Stupid of me to have done so. Suggest you ask Dr. what's his name to be your ping pong ball.

__________________
______________________________________________
“He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask a question remains a fool forever”
Chinese proverb
"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence - and then success is sure." - Mark Twain.

What snide remarks have I made? :roll:

__________________
Obedience brings victory
Victory is life
That is the order of things

I make no claims for astrology, but somewhere I have a program that, from memory, can punch out fairly brief (4 pages or so) natal data, so I'm happy to dig it out for the sake of this thread. Let's hope it was written to work in the 21st century. I'm not an astrologer so can't do what they call "synastry," tying together all the various aspects, but a straight-forward report of their effects should suffice.

However, for it to be "accurate" in astrological terms I need better birth data. Birth time needs to within four minutes and in true local time so it can be related to UT/GMT. I'm not highly familiar with U.S. time zones.

Worm hunter
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/vi...=323142#323142
29 Aug 2004 14:19
8:30 am, May 28th 1982,
Hayward California

8:30am sounds suspiciously rough -- four minutes can make a difference. Are you certain about the time? The only Hayward in the USA in my atlas is the one in Wisconsin, 46 deg 2min North, 91 deg 30 min West. Can you please give accurate co-ordinates? Also, was daylight saving in effect? If so, how much? And what is the exact variation from UT/GMT, just in case I don't get it right.

Bounced Check
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/vi...=323178#323178
29 Aug 2004 17:10
Lat-Long:
42° 54' 0" , -78° 51' 55"
42.9002 , -78.8655
5/01/52 5:15AM EST

Those co-ordinates (presuming you mean North and the minus, East) are near the Kirgizstan and China border, but you give EST. Do you mean 42° 54' 0" North, 78° 51' 55" West, somewhere near Buffalo, NY? I'm guessing you mean 1 May 1952 and if that's correct, did daylight saving apply and how much? UT/GMT variation? Again, if your birthtime is more than four minutes out accuracy can suffer. My mother always told me I was born at 10pm, but a check of the records revealed it was 9:17pm.

Astrologers apparently don't even agree on the "moment of birth," but to me it seems that the time of the first breath would the first act as an independent being. Appearing outside the mother doesn't work because in the case of a water birth the baby could apparently spend a long time under water, still relying on the umbilical cord.

The weirdest thing about astrology is that it says that a planet is in a particular "sign" but you check the sky and see that it's in the next constellation. I believe that the "signs" are 30 degrees each, which doesn't tie in with reality.

Fixed typo.

Canned text with programs do not work. To be correct, it must be done manually.

__________________
______________________________________________
“He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask a question remains a fool forever”
Chinese proverb
"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence - and then success is sure." - Mark Twain.

...and your opinion was that natal astrology was somehow scientifically viable.

Then "we" said, "prove it, using science".

Now, I'm not "trying" to put words in your mouth, but at that point you should have said, "hey, it's just my opinion...I can't prove it, scientifically".

That sure would have saved us all a lot of typing...


Off topic...speaking of typing...

This is about the 5th time I've typed this post...every time I hit the submit buttom, I'm asked to log in again, and the post is lost!

__________________
"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov