When I get this, I go back to the "post a reply" page, mark and copy what I've typed, clear my www.badastronomy.com cookies, log in again, and paste the text. It's a bit of a run-around, but I haven't lost stuff since I worked this out. BTW I'm using Mozilla.

Fred

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"For shame, gentlemen, pack your evidence a little better against another time."
-- John Dryden, "The Vindication of The Duke of Guise" 1684

Kiwi - correct on the date (I'm old enough to remeber the shock of one horrible day in Dallas in 64 and a glorious day in 69 where we proved that we have the brains to get us to another body, even if it is right next door on a astronomical scale). The time does take into account
daylight savings time... I believe. It's what is on my birthcertificate and as I was rather young at the moment of my birth I do not know for sure if daylight savings time was observed at that period.

The longitude and latitude are accurate within 50 meters and yes, it's Buffalo NY. If anyone cares to put it into a GPS or a well done map site it should give you the location of the front door of Buffalo General Hostpial. I was born in the old part of the hospital and hence the 50 meter variable.

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"Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter neccessitatem."
William of Occam

I have a question. I have a twin brother and we are not alike. How does that work?

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Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.

Were you born more than four minutes apart? :wink:

This is one of the problems with natal (or any other form of) astrology. There are multiple systems, multiple interpretations, and variables that can be held to arbitrary requirements for accuracy (notably location and time of birth). It's also fearsomely difficult to get a "believer" to admit there's no value to it, because there's always an "out".

Way, way back when I was in college the first time (long story) I hung out for awhile with a young lady who fancied herself a witch and astrologer. She did my natal chart. I don't remember being too impressed with the results, either way. The "predictions" for my personality were too generic to mean very much.

Let's imagine how Randi might conduct a test of this claim. First, I would imagine that the subject (or subjects) would have to submit to a standard personality test. Then the astrologer would be given several sets of birth information, some valid and others fake (or, perhaps, real data for multiple subjects), and be asked to produce a chart for each. Finally, "blind" judges would try to match the charts with the personality test results. The astrologer's charts would have to be successfully matched to the personality tests at a rate well above chance before the million would be awarded. (Actually, the above would probably be just a preliminary test, with even stricter controls on the final test -- if there were any reason to go beyond the first trial. AFAIK, no one has made it past that first screening, so far.)

The failure of Astrology to pass any such controlled test is why it's not a science. In the immortal words of HUb', "believe what u will".

Whoops! Not only are their charts off by 2000 years, but... #-o

Back to real science.

Bye.

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A person's name, or a mark representing it, as signed personally or by deputy, as in subscribing a letter or other document.

While I personally like personality tests (opinion only), some people do not consider them science. I would be really surprised if Randi does. Unless you're talking the MMPI. That's the one used by psychologists.

The 16 types and the Kiersey one are all based on Jung's work, and we've already seen that he's not exactly scientific. I really like Jung and Joseph Campbell - but I like them on a philosophical basis, not a scientific one.

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"The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient."

I'm somewhat familiar with the Minnesota Multiphasic, and it's tests like that that I had in mind. But I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that there were other, less demanding tests that still had some level of validity. (Doesn't the MMPI take several days of rather grueling testing?)

In any case, my point is that a simple uncontrolled test is not much better than anecdotal evidence, and wouldn't qualify as proof of anything. If any flavor of Astrology could consistently pass controlled testing, we wouldn't be having this discussion -- we'd be looking for some mechanism to explain the results. But it can't, and we aren't.

Incidentally, if all astrologers are so sure they have a real effect, why haven't they looked for and identified the mechanism themselves? Or do they assume it's all mystical and supernatural, so they'll never find the answer? Either way, their approach seems like the very opposite of "scientific".

Unless it's changed since the eighties, it takes about 4 hours. Maybe the grueling part is when the psychologists are interpreting it.

I agree. I just wanted to clarify the thing about what kind of personality test, since I just recently learned that my favorite tests are really no better than this natal astrology stuff.

If they would leave it in the realm of religion, where it belongs, they wouldn't get nearly as much grief. Unfortunately, as you pointed out, they keep insisting it's science. I think it just demonstrates a real ignorance of the scientific method. I enjoy astrology. I've enjoyed it ever since a guy I barely new read my mail just knowing the month I was born in. But I enjoy it the way you do a good magic show. I don't live my life by it, and I don't make any decisions with it. It's just a kick. I don't know why people are so desperate to know the future anyway. I rather enjoy making out a great plan and then being surprised by what does and does not work out the way I intended. 8)

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"The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient."

i am going to have to agree that the example results are too generalized to be of any use as a predictive tool.

The reason i put forth my data was to help the conversation move forward not because i had studied the subject but more in an attempt to learn more about it. So far what you have described has not impressed me at all. So, I will say that if you want to use my data to do an analysis for the record go for it, but otherwise i dont care much. However, if you do decide to you might want to pm me when it is done as i might not check back here soon and i wouldnt want to keep the participants of this thread waiting any longer then they have already.

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They call 'em fingers, but i've never seen em fing..... oh there they go!! otto

We've been concentrating too much on natal astrology. Let's not forget that there is something called horary astrology as well, which deals with the predictions of things not related to any one individual's birth chart. Let's take one pivotal event and examine it, shall we?

2001 September 11, 12:46 UTC.

How many astrologers predicted that, clearly, unambiguously, before the fact, in publications that can be proven to have been published in advance of the above moment?

With thousands of years (supposedly) of accumulated astrological "wisdom" (which we assured by some is a "science"), how come nobody predicted it? With all these centuries of accumulated knowledge, couldn't someone see, "Ooh, Jupiter is over there and Saturn is over there and that means trouble!"?

Our much-maligned intelligence services were almost there, our FBI did uncover that Middle-Easterners were taking aviation courses and didn't seem interested enough in landings. . .

Where were all our astrologers and psychics when we needed them?

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Microsoft is over if you want it.

The bar has been lowered for the promotion of ATM ideas; the bar for the acceptance of ATM ideas must remain high.

:roll:

:roll:

Huh? I don't see how this would make the test fail.
:roll:

I have no problem with you terminating the topic, but don't lay it on us as the reason!!! You can't defend your position. I have defended mine. Accusing us of being uninformed when we have presented more hard data than you have is just plain wrong.

At least take some personal responsibility here. How about, "I'll have to do more research before I can counter the research you have presented"? That would be a start.

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~~ ><>><> ~~ ><,,> ><,,> ...`;=;p d;=;' /\/\^/\ ^^ ^/\/\_
Democracy Now! - The lost art of investigative news reporting.

This used to happen to me when the board was different. It would log me out if I took too long to write the post. That problem has been fixed though. You need to post this in the Bad Astronomy forum under 'Weird things happening'. Lots of folks are having trouble and the BA hasn't figured it out yet.

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~~ ><>><> ~~ ><,,> ><,,> ...`;=;p d;=;' /\/\^/\ ^^ ^/\/\_
Democracy Now! - The lost art of investigative news reporting.

Beskeptical,
Sorry, but you are too one-sided. For your part, you never looked into the methodology of Jungian astrology (and, of course never will either...).

To make my position clear: I am not an astrologist. I was challenged to look into astrology and did so pragmatically: I read a book on Jungian astrology by Robert Hand. Tried evaluating natal horoscopes,and found that there seemed to be something to it after all. (not falling for the effect you quoted BTW - I did the interpretation).

I sent a horoscope evaluation to a poster on this thread who was not patronizing. What he/she does with it is their business.

As I said, I am out of this thread, unless I see an unfair statement being made.

BTW: you remind me of my old kindergarten teacher....

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“He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask a question remains a fool forever”
Chinese proverb
"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence - and then success is sure." - Mark Twain.

You have made claims that some astrology prediction fit your personality. Research has shown that such predictions are falsely assumed to match the intended person. You haven't supported your position except to say you believe.

You claim, again with no evidence, that those of us who are not convinced are ignorant of 'natal astrology' and 'Jungian astrology'. In addition, you claim we are not interested in these things because we do not consider their predictions valid.

Too bad. You have a chance to learn how to avoid the fraudulent claims of such practices but you choose to believe despite evidence to the contrary.

But don't make statements about what I know about, don't know about, will or won't bother finding out about in order to hide the fact you cannot support with any evidence your belief in a branch of astrology. You don't know anything about what I know or don't know. Unless you are claiming now that you have ESP as well. [-X

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~~ ><>><> ~~ ><,,> ><,,> ...`;=;p d;=;' /\/\^/\ ^^ ^/\/\_
Democracy Now! - The lost art of investigative news reporting.

gzhpcu,

HUb' did my chart on his web site, after I gave him my birthdate, birth location, etc.

I was guessing on the time of birth, since my mother couldn't remember. What mother doesn't remember shooting out a cannonball?

I am not a true believer in astrology, but I liked the reading HUb' gave me. It was pretty accurate, meaning a lot of other people would not fall into the same behavior or category.

I also like the history of astrology. 8-[

Would two babies (not twins) born at the exact same time and the exact same location have the same chart?

Ah, but I did and Mr. Jung produced contradictory statements based on the link you provided. He seems to allot a specific moment of time with some kind of quality that he claims imprints a person's personality at birth but then also mentions influences caused by planets. Now, I didn't read Robert Hand's book, just read the stuff your link provided so I don't know how he reconciles Jung's contradictions, but I don't see all that much difference between the "natal," Jungian, or Sidney Omar astrology. They all base their premise on an undefined influence that has no basis in fact.Interpretations are subjective. I'm a Sagittarius for instance and won't dispute that I'm independant and hate routine. That doesn't mean that someone born in May doesn't have the same qualities. You're alleging an outside factor that "imprints" everyone at the moment of birth but there is no such thing. Do you really think newborns are bombarded with an undetectable something that makes them have certain personality traits?What do you consider an "unfair statement?" Natal astrology is hokum? It is. I've noticed you never answered Astronot when he asked about the mechanism involved that makes astrology work and I know why. You don't know. You know why you don't know? There isn't one.You complained about "snide" remarks and then post this? ..Think about it.

Stinger,
If you have followed my posts, you will notice I remain civil. Being only human, when I am bombarded with certain statements, even I can momentarily lose my cool...

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“He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask a question remains a fool forever”
Chinese proverb
"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence - and then success is sure." - Mark Twain.

Stinger,
You statement that you are Sagittarius shows you still do not understand natal astrology. The influence of the sun-sign is less than 10% of overall characteristics.

You keep harping on the mechanisms. I do not have the faintest idea of what makes astrology "work". All I said was that I looked into it and have the feeling there is something to it. I do not care at this point to understand the underlying rationale. I have observed something which surprised me, that is all. I am in full agreement with the arguments against astrology BTW. That is why I do not care to enter such a discussion. I have no logical arguments to support astrology. I just make the observation, that when I apply the method, it seems to provide good results.

corrected typo

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“He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask a question remains a fool forever”
Chinese proverb
"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence - and then success is sure." - Mark Twain.

No one does
but I know how that works.

Everyone here knows I'm astrology-friendly. Just ask beskeptical.

No need to ask anyone. Just check out this little ditty.

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A person's name, or a mark representing it, as signed personally or by deputy, as in subscribing a letter or other document.

OK, but why? Is it because the Sun is one of ten "planets"? What makes the Sun equal to other "planets", when it is so obviously vastly different? What differentiates between Mercury, the Moon, Titan, Ganymede, Pluto, and Charon as "planets"? Why can't astrology even began to address the enormous disparities in physical properties and distances among the objects which are supposed to influence us, and those which are summarily dismissed from the prediction?
OK, Phil, fair enough. But most of us here are compelled to figure out how things work, especially when extraordinary claims are made. Astrology has no explanation for how things work, and the astrologers have had thousands of years to come up with an explanation. During that time, science and astrology have diverged; science has gotten better at explaining and predicting things, while astrology keeps wandering in circles. The parameters you listed previously equate to a menu designed to account for anything by post-hoc explanations ("you say you do like to attend to little details? Ah, that's because planetary aspect 47 was actually x instead of y"). That's why astrology is a pseudoscience; it relies on confirmation bias of the profiled individual, and always has a story to account for its shortcomings - rather than addressing the shortcoming itself.

To quote a renowned philosopher

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Living on Earth may be expensive, but it includes an annual free trip around the Sun.

It still relies on the influences of heavenly bodies and is supposed to factor in the date and time of birth right? I don't think I have to learn how to make natal charts in order to attack it's flaws.

I did not say "I believe in astrology", I said "I believe there is something to it" based on working with the methodology. It came up with some results which I can not explain.

But at least I looked at the methodology and tried it out. Can anyone of you say the same? No, because you say it is impossible, therefore you refuse to look at the methodology.

If that is how you all approach this question, fine with me. But why did you even bother entering a debate in the first place if your minds are already made up? In your place I would ignore the postings and the whole thread would have been dead in no time, as it should be now.

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“He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask a question remains a fool forever”
Chinese proverb
"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence - and then success is sure." - Mark Twain.

It's a BABB thing gzhpcu. I had my mind made up when I argued against Planet X too.

Several people here, including myself, have asked you questions about how this works. Some of my questions were ignored. The remainder were given rather short answers. I have never issued an opinion on the issue one what or another because I knew nothing about natal astrology. The problem is that after reading all your posts, I still don’t know anything substantial. If you have something to say then say it, but please don’t complain about nobody being willing to spend their time researching something you are not even sure about. Without speaking for everyone else, our general interest here is in science, not one person’s vague experience that he/she can’t explain yet insists is meaningful. I still have an open mind, so please tell us, what is the science in natal astrology?

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Living on Earth may be expensive, but it includes an annual free trip around the Sun.

I still have not had a reply to my earlier question .... [If I give the same data (birth date and time, location etc.) to 10 astrologers, will I get 10 identical results from them and if not why not?]
If I give an identical piece of iron to 10 physicists they will all give virtualy identical results for melting point, density, atomic weight etc. this is because physics WORKS. If the same cannot be done with astrology (of any kind) then it doesn't WORK. End of argument.

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The meek will inherit the earth ... the rest of us will go to the stars.

If there was something to it, then "time twins" would have something in common. They don't, therefore there is nothing to astrology.

Summary of UK study

For those that have to deal with astrology in a classroom, here are three fun activities that any grade level can do:

Project Astro sample activities

Why just not let this thread die? I will say it again: I am not out to prove anything. I do not consider astrology a science. Never said so. I never attempted to impart any insight into natal astrology in this thread. Sorry, this can not be done so easily. I had to do it the hard way. It took me several weeks of reading to get the hand of it.

The relevant authors for me were: Robert Hand ("Horoscope Symbols"), Maritha Pottenger ("Astro Essentials"), Banzhaf/Haebler ("Schlüsselworte zur Astrologie") and various essays by Liz Greene.
I read these authors, bought a software program that draws the horoscope and lists the resulting parameter configurations, then did the analysis by hand.

Easy? No. I found the results surprising. I found the time I invested worthwhile. My position was the same as yours before I really invested time in understanding the methodology to do the analysis. That is all I am saying. Why were the results unexpected (for me)? No idea (and thank you, I did in excess of 50 horoscopes and am not as naive as some of you contend).

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“He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask a question remains a fool forever”
Chinese proverb
"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence - and then success is sure." - Mark Twain.

If it makes you all happy: You are all right and obviously I am all wrong. Suggest we really terminate this thread now.

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“He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask a question remains a fool forever”
Chinese proverb
"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence - and then success is sure." - Mark Twain.