Funny you should say that...It made me study physics and chemistry etc.

My conclusion was the same as yours! =D>

Right. I wasn't aware that he predated von Daniken, since I'd never checked competing dates, but I do recall that Heyerdahl had a long period where, whenever von Daniken claimed that "humans could not have done so-and-so; therefore, aliens must have," Heyerdahl went out and *did* it... using technologies available to the humans of the relevant time period. I think he gained much of his recognition that way, whether or not he was "right" in that they actually did those things the way he proposed. For those not familiar, he also sailed across the Atlantic on a papyrus boat to prove that the Egyptians could have made it; raised monoliths on Easter Island (and elsewhere), and, if my memory serves me, quarried a building block of the size used to build the pyramids and transported it the requisite distance. (May have been someone else, but I seem to recall this being done; I didn't check first, though, so I could be wrong.)

As someone trying to analyze and present an accurate description of history and past events, he may have been incorrect more often than not. As someone trying to demonstrate the versatility of ancient technology in order to show what was truly possible--to a scientific community still largely beset with Victorian prejudices in this regard at the time--he was a true scientist and an invaluable contributor to archaeology. The field will remember him for quite some time, even if he turns out not to have made a single correct explication: he forced it to reassess its own values and prejudices, and through that its analyses of what was done, what could be done, and how.

I wonder who's going to step up to slap von Daniken around now.

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I've gotta get me a sig line.

I don't remember Heyerdahl ever responding to Daniken. Anybody have any more info on this?

PS: Oops, just googled and found The Space-Gods Revealed: A Close Look at the Theories of Erich Von Daniken (1976) by Thor Heyerdahl and Ronald Story--which had been mentioned by Yorkshireman. Was it written by Heyerdahl too?

Thor Heyerdahl helped design the Atzlan (the la balsa expedition) which is housed about ten minutes drive from here down in ballina

the local marine museum has it and i still remember as a kid getting to go there- 10 years after it had arrived,there was still contriversy over wheither he had done it or it was a snowjob and he had `hitchhiked' it part of the way on another boat

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No, I'm being ordinarily sarcastic. Don't make me get very sarcastic. You wouldn't like me when I'm very sarcastic. - JayUtah



Surely if you are going to start a conspiracy theory it is best to start with something that might have a grain of truth or reality in it. To start with the preposterous and go downhill from there is just stupid. steve(primus) (Avatar)

It's definitely the same book I've read. Funny, I don't recall Heyerdahl's name as co-author, but it is a long time since I've read it. Probably in about '81-82.

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"We need rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

I've read very little Daniken, but I must point out that this is incorrect.

It is ancient mythology that first asserted there were "those who from Heaven to Earth Came" - the Anunnaki of the Sumerians - the Elohim, Nephilim and Malachim of the Bible, the Egyptians believed their "gods" came from the Planet of Millions of Years, or the Abode of the Gods, and countless other myths tell of the "gods from heaven."
It is an ages old concept merely regurgitated by Daniken.
And rightly so.

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

Ezekiel from my NIV published in '78:

In the thirtieth year, in the fourth month on the fifth day, while I was among the exiles by the Kebar River, the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God.

***snip*** - only to point out that "God" here is elohim, a plural word that should be read as "gods."

I looked, and I saw a windstorm coming out of the north - an immense cloud with flashing lightning and surrounded by brilliant light. The center of the fire looked like glowing metal, and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was that of a man, but each of them had four faces and four wings. Their legs were straight; their feet were like those of a calf and gleamed like burnished bronze. Under their wings on their four sides they had the hands of a man. All four of them had faces and wings, and their wings touched one another.Each one went straight ahead; they did not turn as they moved. ...

Now, one can either attempt to apply metaphorical and allegorical meanings to this description or one can dare to consider literally what is being said.

I know what I choose.

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

Well, what is literally being said is that the prophet Ezekiel had an encounter with beings that were "angels of the Lord". Not until modern times was this interpreted as being an encounter with ETs. Either way, it's valid only if one has faith in what is being written.

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An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get all sorts of weird bugs!

http://www.sprezzatura.it/Arte/Arte_UFO_eng.htm

Thanks, A.DIM...at least you admit that it's your "choice" to believe that...

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"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

I agree somewhat, NC, but because much of the Bible has been corroborated through archaeology and historical texts, I lend some credence to what else might be found to be based on Fact. Remember, barely 200yrs ago many peoples, places and events in the OT were considered "myth."

The thing with Ezekiel, though, is as I pointed out: Elohim is used, not malachi'im or even nephilim. So Ezekiel's encounter was with "the gods."
And as far as modern interpretations: I understand what you mean, but all throughout History, in Myths & Religions worldwide, "the gods" and their "skychambers" or "boats of heaven" were often described, and with striking modernity.

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

You're welcome, R.A.F.
Although, I've always maintained that I choose to read myths & religion more literally, from day 1 two years ago. You see, it is necessary to put oneself in the proper histori-politico-religious context in order to properly evaluate the "evidence," as it were, and the ancients knew their "gods" to be anthropomorphic beings, physically present, but immediately that they were "gods" who possessed technologies and weapons as well as means for amazing flight, ascent and descent.
Again, strikingly modern.

So the purpose of your post is either you've forgotten or ..... ?

Whatever the case, my only intent here was to point out that the idea of "those from heaven to earth came" is NOT a new concept.

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

Ezekiel's encounter with the Elohim means creatures that are subject to Yahweh (there is only one God in Judaism). As explained here. There is nothing that indicates to me that they were talking about aliens. However, since the discussion of religion is forbidden, I can only say that it seems to me to be quite an extrapolation to see Ezekiel's "wheel" as being of ET origin. I consider this incident to be strictly a matter of faith.

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An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get all sorts of weird bugs!

Funny, what quotes like these from religious or mythical texts always bring to my mind is an old Dennis Miller addage (before he became a bit of a kook): "If you got rid of alcohol, pot, and every other drug people will still find ways to get high... even if it means spinning around on their front lawns until they pass out and see god..." Or something to that affect. In other words, such quotes simply serve to remind me that humans (btw - other animals imbibe substances to "get high") have always sought ways to mess with their brain chemistry. The end result, whether the result of alcohol, peyote, LSD, or other chemicals, tends to be an artificial and imagined broadening of consciousness that allows one to see all sorts of things from UFOs, pixies, and pink elephants, to gods.

My first inclination, and btw far more likely than actual heavenly visitors whether supernatural or extraterrestrial, is that our friend Ezekiel was high on the local variation of peyote or some other mind altering substance and had a religious experience. Drive down to a detoxt center some time and watch it happen a dozen times a day.

There's a plausible case to be made that what Ezekiel saw were sundogs.

Sundogs seem to be a very plausible explanation indeed, surely when combined with our will to see something extraordinary.

I've seen a sundog once, I only knew what I saw because I had read about them before. It was quite an unusual one, as it stood almost at the opposite side of the sun (morning sun on a cold, somewhat hazy day).

Sundogs have a modern world variant which can nowadays lead to some very strange sightings: instead of the sunlight reflecting on ice cristals in the sky we can't see, we also have the reflection of any light source (including the sun) on a transparent surface we can't clearly see. Example: driving on the highway at night, you're passing under a bridge. Suddenly you see a strange light rapidly descending ("at thousands of miles an hour, and in complete silence"), and then suddenly hanging still right above the bridge above the highway ("it was watching us"). What you didn't see was that the bridge had a plexiglass sound damping wall on which you saw a simple reflection of the highway lights.
...and that slow driving truck in front of you that was far away before you started staring at the aliens above the bridge.

At least you're seeing the gods after all.

PS anyone notices: sundog -dog - D.O.G. - G.O.D - god! They are sending us messages, let's all start decoding the sundogs language!! (4 suns = we're all gonna die, 59 suns = I knew you are high, shame on you , etc)

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To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.

Interestingly, that appears to have been the reason NASA scientist Blumrich was compelled to analyze "Ezekiel's Wheel;" he, too, initially dismissed the idea as "strictly a matter of faith."
But what did he find?


And from your "explanation:"

"There are not only those both in heaven and on earth who are termed “GODS” (or “ELOHIM”), but there are also those who are “GODS” (“there are many gods and many lords”; 1 Cor.8:5). “Nevertheless,” declares the apostle Paul, “for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is . . . .” (1 Cor.8:6). "

So you seem to be overlooking the fact that the Babylonians elevating Marduk as Supreme among the gods of heaven and earth was the first major step in the direction of monotheism. The Hebrews then did the same thing when they elevated Yahweh or JHVH as their "supreme among gods" god. It is clear that the reason elohim even exists in the plural is because of the polytheistic myths from which "the gods" are drawn.

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

Yeah, but I don't see or hear about detoxers' "visions and gods" making it into Religious texts or even popular mythology. :wink:

I suppose my hangup would be that Ezekiel's encounter was by no means a singular event. Perhaps Gilgamesh found some ancient near eastern herb that brought about his experiences? Adapa, too, might've cooked up something to invoke his encounters. And what about Enoch? Heavy stuff he had to have come up with all that math and astronomy, no? And what do you suppose Abraham was on?

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"Where the telescope ends, the microscope begins. Which of the two has the greater view?" - Hugo

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Churchill

Ok, what did he find? Somehow I don't think it was proof that aliens were visiting the earth.

Also, I said that Judaism was monotheistic. The polytheism that preceded Judaism isn't the faith of Ezekiel. The explanation I put forth isn't mine but rather derived from a site that offers basic understanding of the Old and New Testament.

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An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get all sorts of weird bugs!

I have no idea what they all might have been on. I think certain insane or drug induced ravings previously got more attention for two reasons:
1. Folks didn't know of natural explanations for what they witnessed day-to-day and were more prone to accept fantastical stories.
2. When someone in a position of authority tells the story people tend to believe it. Conversely when some people tell fantastical stories that others want to believe are truth they will invest authority in the story tellers or their proxies.

Both of these instances happen today. However when David Koresh says he talks to god and we should join his cult, dissolve our marriages, and let our wives and teenage daughters have sex with him we recognize it as a load of B.S. (well most of us). The fact that guys like Jimmy Jones and Koresh can attract followers in this day and age only serves to highlight just how much easier it would have been thousands of years ago when desperation, ignorance, and poverty were the rule of thumb rather than the exception. Not so coincidentally, these are exactly the folks modern cults target; the desperate, the ignorant, and the poor. Big surprise.

Place David Koresh 4000 years ago and who knows what religious texts would evolve around his... ahem... "religious" visions and teaching?

All of your examples simply point to multiple instances of similar cult figures. That some of them were authority figures, or were used by authority figures is no big surprise. That some of them may have had other accomplishments is no big surprise. (Can you think of no other accomplished, yet whacky figures from history?) That complex myths and religions arose around some of them is also no big surprise.

What's surprising is that today, when we should know better, we still think there is something to all of this. That anyone assumes that the fantastical may be true when there are countless more likely, known, and understood alternatives is what is truly amazing.

Well, as I mentioned before, Blumrich came up with a nuclear powered alien spaceship that could roll around the countryside on wheels - basing his conclusions on the Ezekiel story. HOW he managed to come to that conclusion, however, is completely beyond me. To me, this interpretation makes about as much sense as finding fossils in the shape of random Martian rocks. My cynical suggestion is that he was merely playing off the "Ancient Astronaut" craze at the time.

Ok, I stand corrected, this fellow did conclude that Ezekiel's wheel was ET. The "how" regarding this conclusion is beyond me as well. Talk about "jumping to conclusions"!

When talking about events that happened thousands of years ago and are entangled with myth and religious beliefs....I don't see how any conclusions can be arrived at.

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An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get all sorts of weird bugs!

Those conclusions are simple to arrive at. If a person determines that these events could be used to create books that would make the author lots of money, then (provided the author has no ethics) voila!, the conclusion is reached! 8)

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A person's name, or a mark representing it, as signed personally or by deputy, as in subscribing a letter or other document.

Of course, silly me, it's all 'bout the Benjamin's!

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An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get all sorts of weird bugs!

Or as Weird Al sang,

It's All About The Pentiums. MIDI link here. Tuba optional, accordion mandatory.

Be sure to note how (with the possible exception of the "I Did It For Love" interlude) the incredible lyricism and unforgettable melodies of the original Puff Daddy rap song come shining through.

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A person's name, or a mark representing it, as signed personally or by deputy, as in subscribing a letter or other document.

A.DIM, i admire your tenacity trying to bring some sense into the subject but sure enough it wont be long before someone requests of you "the evidence". you know, that elusive piece of ancient UFO noone can quite get hold of just to satisfy the "skeptics" who dont invest a minimum of time studying the matter.

WHY is that such an unusual request?? This IS a science board.

Yep, if only I "read the book" then all would become clear, RIGHT?? Try another tune...that one doesn't play anymore...

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"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

Actually, I HAVE looked into claims of ancient alien visitations. There is no evidence that aliens have ever visited Earth.

Also, why should requesting evidence be unreasonable? More importantly, why should everyone - skeptical or not - have to study the evidence? If someone is going to make a claim, they should be prepared to convince people and not assume that people will automatically believe them. If you want to convince us, just show us the evidence.

And prose (text, or a rug, or a painting, etc.) that could be interpreted to mean any of a half dozen or more things is unlikely to be accepted as convincing evidence. Perhaps only by someone that has a desire to believe. It takes something better than that to qualify as evidence. First, the conjecture has to pass a baloney detection sensor. :wink:

its not that it is an unusual request, it more of an absurd request. the "evidence" usualy requested is of a physical nature. and this is done when we cant even establish that an alien visitation event would leave such kind of evidence.

imo its the skeptic "tune" that doesnt play. there is a miriad of evidence that something might have happened in the ancient past of humanity. this evidence is everywhere in ancient texts. you want to interpret this as myth? go right ahead, but unfortunetly that doesnt work for the sake of skeptic arguments since its equaly non-scientific.

studying these anomalies of the past scientificaly implies documenting and trying to undestand those events, even if they sound "mythological".