I read that some guys are setting up a project designed to send a message to ET's (project "Extracom"). There are international conventions and agreements which forbid sending messages to outer space.

Should them be allowed to go on? Is it dangerous?
Should governments worry about? To forbid the initiative is to hinder free speech?

My opinion: I wish them luck.

What do you think?

<a name="20020613.4:3"> page 20020613.4:3 aka S2u
On 2002-06-13 08:20, Argos wrote: To: 4:38 A.M. PST 8 CIB 10 ZOTZ
I read that some guys are setting up a project designed to send a message to ET's (project "Extracom"). There are international conventions and agreements which forbid sending messages to outer space.

Should them {HUb'$} be allowed to go on? Is it dangerous?
Should governments worry about? To forbid the initiative is to hinder free speech?

My opinion: I wish them luck.

What do you think?
of Cour$e cureent Go_Mints should oppose THEM THEN
self preSERVations and besides sometime I spin electrons faster than light speed

Too late!
We've already transmitted "Benny Hill", "Big Brother" and "Terry and June".
Any ET's with taste will be on their way to wipe us out right now.

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Garlic Bread?!?!

Whilst we have been sending Benny Hill and frends into space for years (so to speak), the broadcssts were never targeted in a direction believed to be occupied by alien beings.

Should we receive transmissions from ET I would consider it very important not to reply untill at the very least we have made an effort to decode the received message.

Phobos

Arecibo directed a message at a globular cluster a number of years ago. The details, including the message contents, were given in Cosmos which I don't have handy right now. TV broadcasts from earth have been going in nearly all directions for decades so no matter what area of the sky we think aliens might be located in (how would we determine what a likely direction is, anyways?) chances are there's a reality-based TV show heading their way as we speak.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: pvtpylot on 2002-06-13 14:30 ]</font>

Which will give plenty of fuel to those Alien Fundamentalists who claim that theirs is the only intelligent life in the universe.

The (we are not our own best advertisement) Curtmudgeon

The Arecibo broadcast will not arrive for thousands of years. The unintentional broadcasts were not directed and so would arrive extremely weak. They would be swamped by background noise from the rest of our solar system.

Phobos

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2002-06-13 16:43 ]</font>

Yes, but radio astronomers on nearby planets should be able to pick up the signals without too much difficulty. We could. Also, the Arecibo signal could be intercepted long before it gets to where it's going. Sorry, but I think it's just way too late to be worried about sending signals that others might get ahold of. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: pvtpylot on 2002-06-13 19:31 ]</font>

And which nearby planets would that be?

Well, there've been how many planetary systems identified so far? 80? My point was it's a little late to be worried about not sending signals because if anyone is out there listening I think they can hear us already.
[img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

1. How fast do TV and radio signals actually travel through space?

2. How close is the nearest planetary system?

3. How long would it take all those I Love Lucy reruns to get there?

1. As near to the Speed of Light (299,792.458 km/s) as the Interstellar Medium, will Allow.

2. Epsilon Eridani, which is 9,930,000,000,000,000 (9.93E+15) kilometres, away.

3. 10.5 Years, Great, now they're Starting to Watch Seinfeld, "Jerry, Hello!"

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If you Ignore YOUR Rights, they Will go away.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ZaphodBeeblebrox on 2002-06-14 00:31 ]</font>

1. The speed of light since they are a form of light.
2. Unknown, but if planetary systems are as prolific the evidence is showing then it's quite likely that there are many worlds within the 60 or so light years that our earliest TV signals have travelled so far.
3. Well, I Love Lucy aired in the mid to late 50's so the signals would be 50 or so light years distant. Again, probably more than enough distance to have travelled to several planetary systems by now.

I think it's kind of cool to imagine a SETI at Home-like project picking us up on another world.
[img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: pvtpylot on 2002-06-14 00:31 ]</font>

Cross-Post Alert!

__________________
If you Ignore YOUR Rights, they Will go away.

Okay, thanks.

So the part in Contact about the aliens receiving Hitler's broadcasts was actually plausible...

Is that the current known closest? They're coming so fast now I can't keep track! [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] It's very likely that record will change soon.

I don't know, we're Among the Closest Stars, even now, but I am, Holding out Hope, for Alpha Cent, (Rigil Kent, to those of you Purists, Down Under) now that, Would be Neat!

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If you Ignore YOUR Rights, they Will go away.

Well, Yes and No.

Yes, because that was, as quite Clearly Stated in the Book, as well as The Movie, The First Signal, that We Sent, that was of Sufficient Power, to be Noticed, Above the Interstellar Background.

No, because we couldn't, at least at the Current Time, Perform a Similar Feat; in fact, a Modern Civilization, could be Orbiting One of the Stars of Alpha Cent, (Rigil Kent) Right Now, and we couldn't know about them, Unless, of course, They Wanted us To!

_________________
If you Ignore YOUR Rights, they Will go away.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ZaphodBeeblebrox on 2002-06-14 01:02 ]</font>

They're not going to contact us. They think our science fiction movies are newscasts and they're afraid of our advanced weaponry.

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Life is like a box of chocolates. All of your choices are bad for you.

Hmmm, out of my league, though I'd like to think we could detect something. BA, if your listening, do you think we could detect a civilization 5-10 light years away emitting the same types of signals that we ourselves are putting out now? Do we not have the technology, or would it just be a case of making a dedicated search?

I know that you're Kidding, but as my Mother likes to say, oh how she likes to say it, "Many a True Word is said, in Jest."

It's Cultural Contamination, that would, probably, Scare them, The Most!

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If you Ignore YOUR Rights, they Will go away.

Doubtful, I think. Since Alpha Centauri is a binary star (actually a triple system, counting Proxima Centauri orbiting both Alpha Centauri A and B at 0.1 light years distance), the likelihood of it harbouring planets in addition to its stellar companions is extremely low. In addition, if we assume an alien civilization to be at least as advanced as us, then they will probably have been transmitting some form of electromagnetic radiation for the purpose of communications, just as we have. So far none has been detected.

In fact, if intelligent life is reasonably commonplace in the universe, we should have detected some form of radio signal from *somewhere* by now, considering that the universe is in the order of 13 billion years old - supposedly plenty of time to give rise to several civilizations capable of developing telecommunications technology. As Fermi would have it, "Where are they?".

My belief is that intelligent life is probably EXTREMELY rare in the universe. Sadly, this goes totally against what I've always wanted to believe in: the "Star Trek"-style universe teeming with intelligent life forms. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif[/img] Oh, well...

Lastly, I think our television transmissions would probably not be decipherable to an alien civilization - they would likely need to construct a device that precisely replicates the workings of a television receiver, and then have it rendered on a compatible screen. And they would need to do all of this with an *unbelievably* weak signal to begin with.

We have been (inadvertently) transmitting television signals into space since when? The mid-thirties? That means our signals have spread out as a 'sphere' currently no larger than about 65 l.y. in diameter. That covers a fair bit of local space, but in the grand scheme of the universe it's infinitesimal (I love that word - did I spell it correctly?). I really don't believe there are any alien civilizations as close to us as this.

Just my tuppence worth.

Cheers,

JB.

__________________
Nowhere in all space or on a thousand worlds will there be men to share our loneliness. ...in the principles of evolution we have had our answer: of men elsewhere... there will be none, forever. - Loren Eisely, The Immense Journey, 1956.

True, but from a Literary Standpoint, it could Certainly make for an Interesting Yarn.

[Dons Story Teller's Cap]

Imagine, if you Will, an Alien Civilization, just 50 Years more advanced than our own, Living on a Planet, not much Different from Our Own, Orbiting around Alpha Centauri B.

Most Science Fiction Writers, i.e. Gene Roddenberry, shy away from Alpha Cent, for exactly the Reasons, that you Stated, and the Ones, who have had a Story take Place there, i.e. J. Michael Straczynski, make Absolutely no use of The System itself, Whatsoever; an Attendant Mythology alone, could Fill a Book!

Yes, that's exactly what these People would Say, along with Some Mumbo Jumbo, about how a Lone Star, could Never Support a Life-Bearing World, All on its Own, without the Moderating effects of, at least, One other Star, to offset The Wildly Fluctuating Seasons, of a Planet without a Large Moon orbiting it.

But then, like out of The Black, they Intercept some Very Powerful Signals, being sent from an Extra-Rigilian (Name Subject to Change) Planet, to what turns out to be, a Rinky-Dink Little Spacecraft on a Transfer Orbit, to a Rather Largish, orbiting moon.

After quite a bit of Fun, Deciphering the Signal, they realize that their New Neighbours, have only Recently Stared Building Vehicles, capable of Spacing, and Become Positively Giddy, with The Nostalgia, of it All!

However, Warmer Heads soon prevail, and it is Decided, by a Multi-National Tribunal, to Observe the Aliens, for a while, before doing Anything Rash, like Sending Out a Signal, or Two.

As the Aliens' Technological Level increases, The Tribunal decides, after Much Deliberation, that they will Curb the Use of Their Own Signals, to Remain Undetected, as the Possibility of an Inter-Stellar War, though Extremely Unlikely, weighs heavily on their Minds.

[Takes off Story Teller’s Cap]

I know, I know, an Actual Inter-Stellar Attack, is Nearly Impossible, But, an Inter-Stellar First Strike, is Such Child's Play, that we could, do it, Now!

All that you Need to do, is to Throw out every Idea that you have Ever Had, about Manned Inter-Stellar Travel, e.g. Life Support, Ever Coming Back, and Especially Slowing Down, and Take an Orion Rocket, Load it with a few Thousand Hydrogen Bombs, and making sure that the Target Planet won't be on the Far-Side of its Sun when the Missile Arrives, just Accelerate it up to .1c (10% of the Speed of Light, and if you had to read this, thank you for Bearing with me [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] ) and make sure, that it Strikes, a Populated Continent; Quick, Simple, Deadly, just look at Callisto!

So, TBA, how's my Astronomy, not to Mention, my Physics?

_________________
If you Ignore YOUR Rights, they Will go away.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ZaphodBeeblebrox on 2002-06-14 05:47 ]</font>

perhaps you could buy a ufo off us martians instead. ufos go very fast and can be programmed to lock onto targets.

__________________
<marquee> the guy that has come from mars, for no reason (no reason, or you think for no reason......) </Marquee>

Yeah, by Using Bad Astronomy!

[img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img]

__________________
If you Ignore YOUR Rights, they Will go away.

Maybe some orbiting 55 Cancri.[img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

I've heard of Dr. Vakoch before. He's proposed the "Incommensurability Problem", which states that the conceptualization of the universe by an alien form of life may be so different than ours that communications might be virtually impossible.

As to the security question involved, I don't think that “civilized” aliens (whoever/whatever they are) have destructive disposition. I stick with Frank Drake's opinion that highly developed forms of life should necessarily destroy themselves before posing a threat to other civilizations. We are ourselves in the verge of a breakthrough: next 100, 200 years will be crucial to our long-term aspirations. We are in the destructive adolescence stage. If we emerge safe and sound after this troublesome period, we’ll surely become an increasingly peaceful civilization, apt to assist (or observe at distance) the development of eventual inferior life forms we detect, without destroying them.

And there’s also the question of free speech. Why shouldn’t I speak to the “outside”? Why do I have to obtain a government’s permission to talk with my extra-planetray friends? Doesn’t it sound like the things that happened in Soviet Union? Is the planet Earth a prision-planet? What's the difference between a phone call from Brazil to my friend in Australia , and a radio call to my to-be pal in 55 Cancri? Personally, I don’t feel comfortable following directives like “wait until we are sure to reply” or “don’t reveal our position to strangers”, or “listen to what the authorities have to say”. This seems to mirror our primitive fears, the primitive violence imprinted in the deepest recesses of our reptilian brains ( besides having a flavor of totalitarism) and not a vision of a technically-oriented, self-confident, generous, and free civilization.

We have to discuss this subject exhaustibly, in an open-minded approach, so that Mother Freedom remains untouched. The IAU must open this debate to the world society as a whole. This subject is too important for being discussed behind closed doors, by technocrats.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Argos on 2002-06-14 09:30 ]</font>

I don't quite agree with the idea that aliens would be too different to communicate with. I think the vagaries of life would be pretty universal in that basic concepts would be found in any form of language. There will always be some way to communicate the ideas of physical objects and basic actions at the very least. Now, this doesn't preclude difficulties arising from the means of communication (colored lights, subsonic vibrations, biting each other on the rump, etc.), or from the differences in attitude and belief (only creatures with 3 noses have true honor.), but at least concrete ideas should be communicable. As a good example, I always liked the ST:TNG episode where Picard has to communicate with aliens whose language was all metaphor. Truly different in thinking styles, but they could at least get some basic ideas across without much difficulty.

I also can't agree with the idea that any advanced civilization must be relatively benign in nature. Just read Larry Niven's Known Space series for a perfect example of this. In his stories, humanity had become precisely like that, peaceful and passivistic, and believed in just this principle. It was inconceivable to them that any alien race could be dangerous. That is until the war-like Kzinti showed up and tried to (literally) eat them for lunch. They learned their lesson real fast. And in these stories, the Kzinti are not just a simple cardboard-cutout alien enemy. Au contrare, they are probably one of the most fully fleshed-out cultures in SF literature.

The Klingons from Star Trek also fit this mold. I could also mention Niven's and Pournelle's Moties, and the aliens in Footfall (N&P have a real knack for creating believable aliens), and dozens of other examples. In the end, I think the best attitude to have in regards to the behavior of aliens is not to assume anything.

I mean, didn't Independence Day teach us anything? [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img]

<font size="-1">(Fixed up the quote section and added some comments)</font>
_________________
David Hall
"Dave... my mind is going... I can feel it... I can feel it."


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: David Hall on 2002-06-14 10:10 ]</font>

Larry Niven made a point in one of the "Man-Kzin Wars" books that really hit home for me. One of the human characters tells a Kzin that the reason that we (humans) gave up war is that "we are just too (darn) good at it".

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Any day you wake up on "the right side of the dirt" is a good day.

T. Anderson