I on the other hand have never Kipled.

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'The eye can only see what the mind is prepared to accept'

It's almost as if Dr. Bird, DWE's principal investigator, is answering Jerry directly, isn't it?

By Jerry's own words, Doppler data showing Huygens landed at the correct time kills his "theory". So I just want to see Jerry claim that JPL and ESA scientists can't tell the difference between a probe falling through the atmosphere and one sitting on the surface based on Doppler data. Because that's what has to be the case in order for his "theory" to survive.

Edit: "Survive" above is a poor choice of words, as it implies that the Doppler data is the only problem for Jerry's "theory". The fact is that there have been dozens of observations brought up in this thread that have effectively "killed" his "theory". This is just one of the latest.

I wrote:
Which by the way reminds me that it is impossible that Huygens would fall under its parachute for just 20 minutes as Jerry claims. The software would have detected that the expected acceleration thresholds have not been detected within the expected time by the accelerometers or g-switches, the timeout event would have occured, so the parachutes would deploy anyway at the expected time for the time-out event (just a few minutes later after the nomimal time for parachute deployment).

So, since the time-out event did not occur, its impossible that Huygens was falling under the parachute for just 20 minutes...

Not that we need this to explain that Jerry is wrong, but we can add this to the long list of reasons that prove that his scenarios are wrong...

There is a flag included in the table, that indicates whether data in the table is from the time-at-altitude chart, or the Doppler radar. The radar data was to be used, but only if it passed a sanity check. (yes, we have discussed this, but I don't think my position was very clear.)

I am of the opinion that this table should have been assembled on Earth, not on Titan and transmitted - why bother? Elias has explained why, But what I really want to know is how much, and over what span of time, does the flag bit in the table indicate radar data was used, rather than an altitude extracted from a table? If I am correct, there should be no more than a long-minutes worth of radar data, and no more than half-a-minute of radar data used in the construction of the altitude table - if that.

In engineering, yes - the number of significant figures is small. Scientists should always insist on having access to the raw data when doing basic research. Converting the files to jpegs has the potential of introducing artifacts that are impossible to isolate. Mission planners made gross prior assumptions about the light patterns, atmospheric composition, optical depth, solar resolution, rms values, pixel saturation.

Converting the files to jpegs prior to transmission is tantamount to conceding there is no basic research, no new physical law that can possibly be expected. These are very bad, very expensive assumptions.

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jwj

It's ok not to know. We should try harder to find out.

Jerry wrote:So why do you continue to use 'corrupted' data files to try to promote your cause. You obviously have no respect or confidence in any of the data released by ESA or NASA and you persist in making unjustified comments about engineering and design decisions taken at least 10 years ago. The data budget was tight, it made sense to use .jpg files for the visuals easpecially when you consider that there was a distinct possibility that, because of Titan's atmosphere, they could have been blank.

You want pure data for your own instant personal use? Go fund your own mission using your 'new physics' and see if you can even lift a rocket off the ground, never mind deploy two craft like Cassni and Huygens to rendevous with Saturn.

Once more for the record: Huygens landed sucessfully on time in Jan 2005 and Cassini continues to be a success without any input from Jerry or 'new physics'.

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By asking questions we sometimes get the wrong answers, from wrong answers we learn to ask the right questions.

If you took a gravimeter for a parabolic ride in the ‘vomit comet’, while it was in the parabolic arc it would measure a gravimetric force of zero. But what would it really be measuring? The net difference between the acceleration of the airplane and the acceleration due to gravity.

In Einstein’s world, Gravimeters determine the force of gravity by measuring the acceleration of a mass that is caused by gravity.

All the same, it would be a lot easier to hold my head up if I were in sky lab or whatever it is up there orbiting, and my neck would know the difference. If the force of gravity is not causing an acceleration that is making my neck work to keep my head from tipping, what is?

Good numbers. If you look at this stereo image, the gold has lost it’s sheen and has a mottled look, like it was heated maybe twenty- fifty degrees C above the melting point, hot enough to melt, but not hot enough for long enough to puddle and completely lose its form.

Ouch! Where is the chemist in you this time? Basic kinetic theory: Slow molecules mean slower heat transfer. Thermalconductivity should always be reported within a specific temperature range.

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jwj

It's ok not to know. We should try harder to find out.

Having mastered the Maple Leaf Rag, the Gladiolus Rag, and a few others at one time, I guess I can say that I've Jopled.

Hey, this is kind of nice, and pretty much unique for this thread: a post that replies to another post, both of which make sense! Or do string resonances vary according to their distance from the Sun?

BTW, I'm anxiously waiting for Jerry to start a thread that demonstrates that, since new physics wasn't being used, the moon landings were failures.

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Before you embarrass yourself more, have a look at this. It describes the multi-layer insulation (MLI) used on Huygens. There is no gold involved.

The MLI is burned and torn off early in descent. It couldn't survive all the way to impact.

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"A mystic is a person who is puzzled before the obvious but who understands the nonexistent." -- Elbert Hubbard

:roll:

The average speed of a methane molecule at 93 K is still 350 m/s. I seriously doubt that you would be able to notice a change in thermal conductivity (ignoring phase changes) until the temperature drops into the milliKelvin.

I keep checking in on this thread to see if Jerry has admitted that he is wrong. Perhaps we should all just give up and go away. Jerry, I'm still open to the idea of a variable G. However, the success of various probes and our ability to accurately predict the locations of comets, asteroids, and planets centuries in advance proves that it can only vary significantly on the scale of 10's or 100's of light-years. It cannot vary significantly for at least several hundred AU's out. If you want to argue that a (very slowly) varying G will explain away dark matter, fine. But admit that G is constant in our solar system.

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Old laser physicists never die, they just become incoherent.
These days, every Tom, Dick, and Harry thinks he knows what a photon is, but he is wrong. - Albert Einstein

It would be measuring the net gravitational force of zero, as all parts of it are falling together. And an accelerometer would also measure zero, as all parts of it would be accelerating together too.

Nope, they measure the force on the mass, it's not moving, no acceleration is involved.

You said it yourself, it's gravitational force. No acceleration occurs until you relax your muscles.

Contrast this with the "vomit comet" scenario above. There you have no support and can measure no gravitational force or acceleration even though you're falling. Here your head is supported by your neck, your neck by your spine, spine by chair, chair by floor etc., etc., and so a gravitational force can be measured, but you're not accelerating at all.

Assemblies of masses and springs etc. simply cannot measure gravitational acceleration, although they're perfectly adequate for measuring graviational forces when at rest.

if it got above it's melting point then it's a liquid, end of story. If it's still there it didn't melt. I'm not sure what point you're making with that image, what's it supposed to be?

Anyway, as has been adequately pointed out, it was mylar not gold.

I think you'll find they are far more dependent on temperature gradients that absolute temperature. I did say "vary greatly".

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Captain Edmund Blackadder

Not a problem, it looks more like aluminum more than gold anyway. What's a few hundred degrees amoung friends?

(Why did every picture caption description I read, on either the ESA or NASA site, describe it as 'gold' as opposed to 'aluminumized Mylar', every one can see that it is gold colored...That is like saying "The bottom of the space shuttle is covered with white tiles". When anyone looking at the picture can tell where the bottom is, and can see they are white. Sheeeesh!)

It would not have burned - no oxygen. And it had to land somewhere. Why not right next to the heat shield, especially if it was still attached to the wiring harness.

Like I said, I had to be convinced the 'ghostly image' was part of the heat shield thermal blanket - what a stupid idea - especially since I predicted that the probe would fall faster and hotter. But there is is - complete with pleats, ripples, umbellical harness and a big center ring.

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jwj

It's ok not to know. We should try harder to find out.

I'm sure that it does now that it has been pointed out to you! It's another example of sloppy research and your willingness to glom onto anything you think supports your fantasy. It only took me a few minutes of research to find out about the material and who manufactured it.

Typical Jerry. You don't research something carefully and it's other people's fault. All the references I saw said gold colored. Your space shuttle analogy is a rather poor attempt at deflecting from the real issue.

No kidding. I was writing informally. Do you think scoring a rhetorical point is going to cover up how daft your idea is?

Because the heat shield was released high in the atmosphere and fell away while the probe descended on parachutes for 2hrs 27min.

What wiring harness? You've yet to produce an explanation on why there is a wiring harness on the heat shield or a diagram that shows this connection.

Then you should re-evaluate your position. There is no way the thermal blanket could survice entry. Every resource I've read suggests the same thing. The MLI is torn away early on in the descent. The heat shield itself was expected to ablate nearly 10kgs of material.

No disagreement here.

You're seeing what you want to see. Why hasn't the DISR team seen these things? There is nothing to suggest a thermal blanket could survive entry. There is nothing to suggest the heat shield landed anywhere near Huygens. There is no evidence of any wiring harness or an explanation of how it could survive entry.

Your "analysis" is woefully inadequate.

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"A mystic is a person who is puzzled before the obvious but who understands the nonexistent." -- Elbert Hubbard

The bottom of the Space Shuttle is covered with dark, almost black tiles. The only way they would look white would be if you were looking at a negative image.

Hmmm, we may be onto something here. Is there such a thing as negative vision, you know, sort of like color-blindness, but where white looks black, etc? I wonder if this would affect other areas of perception, such that right is perceived as wrong, fact as fiction, etc.? :-k

Here're a couple more photos:

A ceramic thermal tile.

Tiles in place on the front underside of the shuttle.


[edit/add links/typo]

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Yes...looks can be deceiving. See image KSC-05pd-0511...perhaps I am wrong, and it is necessary to state that they are white...were white?

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jwj

It's ok not to know. We should try harder to find out.