this is a new thread regarding the other on this subject.


http://www.all-creatures.org/stories...n-atheist.html

Carl Sagan OTOH believed in nothing. While I love his books, I'm allowed to dissagree with him.

These are practical only. They don't define God or religion, but they at least give a reason for faith.

I've tried to reconsile my faith with religion, but it's not possible. Religion, generally, is hogwash to me.


Not that anyone asked my opinion or for me to start a new thread, but I thought I could share.

__________________
"I will do my best to understand and explain the universe from big to small without invoking miracles, unrepeatable events, or divine intervention. In place of those things I will use observations, mathematics, and science."


-Cross
My travel blog

Some of my Astrophotography


Those that lack education have a hard time understanding its value. - Cross

I think you are wrong to say that Carl Sagan believed in "nothing". He did not believe in anything supernatural, but that is not the same thing. It's obvious to anyone who watches his shows or reads his books that throughout his life he was full of awe and wonder at the cosmos and the world around us, and he had faith that the sciences could help us uncover the secrets as to how it all works.

Now that may not be the same saying he had a "faith" in the religious sense, but is certainly more accurate that saying he believing in "nothing".

OK, so I'm confused. First you say you disagree with Sagan, who you say had no faith, and now you say you are not religious? Some Christians try to claim that faith in God is not a religion, but by definition religion is the worship of a transcendent deity (what they are really objecting to is "organized religion" - i.e. the denominations).

Would you care to explain your definition of faith?

So you're saying that Budhism isn't a religion because they don't believe in a deity? Try again. Your definition is lacking.

K

actually, most Buddhists that I know claim it's not a Religion by the normal definition.


to answer Tacitus, I guess I meant Organized Religion. That fits better with what I mean.

It doesn't take a preacher for me to worship God, if I choose. Actually, I find that the preacher usually gets in the way by directing the parishoners.

__________________
"I will do my best to understand and explain the universe from big to small without invoking miracles, unrepeatable events, or divine intervention. In place of those things I will use observations, mathematics, and science."


-Cross
My travel blog

Some of my Astrophotography


Those that lack education have a hard time understanding its value. - Cross

Since you brought up definitions

People tend to worship the "institutionalized system" more than the creator.

__________________
"I will do my best to understand and explain the universe from big to small without invoking miracles, unrepeatable events, or divine intervention. In place of those things I will use observations, mathematics, and science."


-Cross
My travel blog

Some of my Astrophotography


Those that lack education have a hard time understanding its value. - Cross

Argument from incredulity.

Believe me, not believing that some "maker" designed and produced the universe does not diminish the awe and wonder of it all.

__________________
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

hey, I realize that. I have also heard the argument that because we exist God exists. That's a terrible idea to teach children, but it happens.

__________________
"I will do my best to understand and explain the universe from big to small without invoking miracles, unrepeatable events, or divine intervention. In place of those things I will use observations, mathematics, and science."


-Cross
My travel blog

Some of my Astrophotography


Those that lack education have a hard time understanding its value. - Cross

I imagine that would enable you to more easily reconcile your faith with science, wouldn't it?

So what's your take on the observations that the universe is expanding, which logically points (backwards) to a big bang of some sort?

__________________
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

I must be nuts for posting in this, but I can't let this trainwreck continue without trying to pull the brake.

No belief held by any individual should be grounds on which to question their integrity or objectivity, unless its documentable that they are allowing belief to compromise their objective integrity in the face of observed evidence to the contrary. Fact must be what it is, belief can only fill in the gaps until the facts are known, regardless of what is believed.

Beyond that, this thread's tap dancing in a minefield, guys and gals.

__________________
The last time I felt a warm fuzzy feeling, I was informed by my doctor that it was just gas.

I agree Doodler. This will never come to anything but being banned. yikes 8-[

Why don't we discuss somebody elses heresies instead of our own. One need only mention Newtons anti-trinitarianism and Islamic connection. http://www.salaam.co.uk/bookshelf/iinbritain.html


All the best
Trob

__________________
second technician Rimmer, Arnold J., experienced what can only be described as a voyage to trip-out city

I'm a scientist, like Newton and Einstein.

I believe what I see.

__________________
"I will do my best to understand and explain the universe from big to small without invoking miracles, unrepeatable events, or divine intervention. In place of those things I will use observations, mathematics, and science."


-Cross
My travel blog

Some of my Astrophotography


Those that lack education have a hard time understanding its value. - Cross

See that's why it's called 'faith'.

__________________
You're a coward and a liar and a thOOF - Bart Sibrel

I thought faith was believing what you don't see. Believing what you do see is empiricism.

I thought BABBers were supposed to say something like "go to talk-origins." or some such... :wink: Minefield indeed.

I'd like to have total faith, however I always find myself lacking. Organized religion is a sham. It served its purpose when goverment couldn't handle the masses. Awe and beauty exist all around us, currently without explanation. Caral Sagan really tried to be an unbiased observer of human nature.

It's still amazing that a universe could come into existance, muck around for about 10 billion years, and produce neat chemical reactions (that I 'believe' are inevitable), and as a happy by-product, study itself.

__________________

Feynman
>~~~~<
Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool.

Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.

Thats funny, because I always thought that Einstein was characterized by his less than empirical approach to science. How about the definition of simutanity? Einstein always prided himself on solving the problems of the universe on the back of an envelope, rather than through a telescope. Also, Newton was a deeply devout heretic who also dabbled in the dark arts. His science was simply the top of the iceberg of an otherwise mystical universe which he sought to decode through alchemy and what not.

Trob

__________________
second technician Rimmer, Arnold J., experienced what can only be described as a voyage to trip-out city

Problems may be solved on the back of an envelope, but they are raised (correct?) by looking through a telescope, and the solutions are confirmed the same way. Isn't that what empiricism is all about?

__________________
Knowledge is a curse, but ignorance is worse

You could also look into Poincaré
( http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/p/po...0of%20Geometry.) or the Duhem Quine thesis ( http://www.phatnav.com/wiki/index.php?title=W._V._Quine )

All the best
Trob

__________________
second technician Rimmer, Arnold J., experienced what can only be described as a voyage to trip-out city

Einstein was primarily a theorist. He wrote a LOT of material that was confirmed by the observations of others, or were confirmed long after he passed. I don't recall him ever saying anything he wrote was The Law, and in many cases, he revised his own material based on feedback from others. He never assumed what he put to paper was perfect, and in the case of his Universal Constant, proverbially slapped himself on the forehead for being that wrong (of course, it turns out he was onto something, he just didn't know).

That's a textbook case of how a scientist of Faith (capitalized for emphasis) should operate. Believe what you will, but publish what you can independently support with evidence.

__________________
The last time I felt a warm fuzzy feeling, I was informed by my doctor that it was just gas.

Agreed, but let me add this:

The stories are "glurges" -- a type of so-sweet-it's-diabetes-inducing urban legend that is made up by someone with an agenda. Thee have the characteristic of "a problem is presented * a miracle occurs * the outcome is what the storyteller wants (generally Christian.)"

I can't think of a single athiest/agnostic/Buddhist/Wiccan/Pagan/Satanist who was ever convinced by a single sentence. Einstein was (if memory serves) a deist and while Newton was extremely religious, that story is really out of character with his behavior and the Catholic religion that he fervently believed in.

Urban legends make for Bad Bad Bad Science.

I don't know why it bugs me so much but this:

should read.

his orrery (i.e. a mechanical model of the solar system with a crank handle to make the planets and moons move round).

I agree about that Newton story, it screams Urban Legend -- anonymous atheist (how many self-declared atheists were there in the 17th century anyway?), reaffirmation of God from someone intelligent, quick conversion with a couple of sentences.

I'd need to see the historical reference for this Newton story before I believe that it is in anyway true. I'm not surprised that the website notes "origin unknown", because a quick Google found the story all over the place but none cite the source.

__________________
Now while I might be amused by Cthulhians, I don't necessarily distrust them to carry out the functions of government. -- JayUtah

What's it like being a skeptic in the Middle East? Check out my blog.

Years ago I remember hearing another term for an Orrery, but now I can't recall what it was. It's actually been bothering me for a few yeas now. Anyone have any thoughts?

The answer is "planetarium":

http://brunelleschi.imss.fi.it/catal...;chiave=100292


Trob

__________________
second technician Rimmer, Arnold J., experienced what can only be described as a voyage to trip-out city

I don't it was that exactly, since I think I would have remembered its similarity to the projection devices we usually mean today when we talk about planetaria. However, I think that's the right track! I see there are a few specific terms for types of planetaria, such as tellurium or jovilabium; it might have been something like that. It's been so long that I might not even remember when I find it, sadly.

What is: "astrolabe"

Thats correct for 600$ bling bling bling

Trob

Edited:
I got so excited I wrote it wrong the first time #-o

http://www.astrolabes.org/astrolab.htm

__________________
second technician Rimmer, Arnold J., experienced what can only be described as a voyage to trip-out city

"To the extent that the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not true; and to the extent that they are true, they do not refer to reality." - Albert Einstein

I realise you weren't talking about math, but I couldn't resist. :wink:

__________________
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire.
"All your bias are belong to us" Ara Pacis.

I'm fairly certain that isn't it either, since that isn't quite the same thing. I think it was a something-ium.

I believe the actual quote is, "As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." And of course he also said, "How can it be that mathematics, being after all a product of human thought independent of experience, is so admirably adapted to the objects of reality?"

According to this site, planetarium is another name for orrery.

__________________
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire.
"All your bias are belong to us" Ara Pacis.

bugger - here is you 600$ back.

Well Im fresh out of ideas - good luck finding your word.

Trob

__________________
second technician Rimmer, Arnold J., experienced what can only be described as a voyage to trip-out city