Taken from the article:

Students of the Mayan calendar see this as confirmation that we are indeed living in the twilight of this present age and approaching the beginning of a New Age – the end of one prophetic cycle and the beginning of a new cycle. The Mayans stated that “time would collapse” at the end of their calendar cycle. [-( "Funny I hadn't heard about the mayan calendar talking about a time collapse before"



The “collapsing of time” is a mysterious phrase. How would time itself “collapse”? Could this be a reference to the “time of refreshing” and “restitution of all things” foretold in the Scriptures – when the Calendar itself and the orbit of the earth itself will be changed? Peter refers to it as “the time of universal restoration that God announced long ago through his holy prophets” (Acts 3:21,

Collapsing of time? Why does that sound like the "White hole in time that ukranian "Math professor' came up with? Changing the orbit of the earth? I wonder if the writer is not hinting at 'poleshift". #-o Anyway, time collapsing would be one less dimension (since some people consider time a fourth dimension). The article also makes reference to the Bible Code saying: "not even the brightest minds could prove it wrong".

The research was good, although including woowoo stuff doesn't help. It reduces credibility.

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"jiu-jitsu is perfect it's people who makes mistakes"

In a debunking mood? Check this site: http://www.sherdog.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=54

You will always find conspiracies there. Open an account and expose them. But careful, they may call you a 'government sheep".

Hi.

What do you guys care what other people believe?

I am asking this question in all seriousness. I am very interested in why people hold to certain beliefs and why people can become so motivated to convince others that their beliefs are wrong.

First of all, let me say that I fully understand why astronomers would want to correct other astronomers when they think they have made an incorrect claim. That's just good science. And furthermore I fully understand why you would want astronomy to be correctly taught in public schools and universities.

What I am asking is, why do you feel that you have a personal mission to explain to conspiracy theorists or so called alternative scientists why they are wrong. These people are generally not interested in convincing mainstream scientists that what they purport is true, nor are they attempting to convince the masses via public education that their alternative theory is correct (except in the case of "creation science" in certain parts of the US). Rather they appeal to a small minority of people who get a kick out of reading a good conspiracy story or like musing about ideas outside of the spectrum of established science. In otherwords, why do you care what a minority of people in the US and the world believe?

My guess is that either you do it as an excercise in scientific reasoning or that you just think debunking is fun. In that case, fine. I can understand that.

What I don't understand is the belief that there is something wrong with these people, that in a perfect world these kinds of beliefs wouldn't exist, or that the world would be a better place if everyone believed only that which your particular type of reasoning (scientific reasoning in this case) supports.

Now I do not want to argue about why scientific reasoning is the right type of reasoning, rather I want to understand why, in the spirit of science, you guys feel motivated to convince others that their beliefs are wrong.

If you feel that this subject is off topic and not within the scope of Bad Astronomy then my apologies. But let me suggest that if you really wish to be critical of bad reasoning on all levels you should be critical of why Bad Astronomy should exist in the first place. In the meantime you can just email me your responses, the machine name is hotmail.com and my username is wildgnu. I hope you guys are smart enough to figure out how to email me. :-)

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~SS

Welcome to the board SecondSun. The problem here is that many of the things we debunk are not just appeals to people who a kick out of a conspiracy story. Promoters of doomsday predictions can cause real hardship on the people who believe them. Nancy L, who predicted that Planet X would cause massive destruction on May 15th 2003, scared many people - here's one example. Some quit their jobs and left their families and friends in order to move to safe locations. Nancy also advocated killing your pets to 'spare' them.

Other promoters of doomsday are con-artists out to get cash from people who don't know much about science. Still others truly believe in the things they promote, like astrologers, but since we find that it doesn't work then people who go to them are spending money needlessly which could have gone to other things.

Generally, that's why we do what we do, and why the Bad Astronomer made this site.

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Now while I might be amused by Cthulhians, I don't necessarily distrust them to carry out the functions of government. -- JayUtah

What's it like being a skeptic in the Middle East? Check out my blog.

This example came to mind also.

I came across a woman last year in 'net chat who said she'd fallen victim to the Px paranoia as well. A certain someone advocating a Px doomsday had told her that she could see Planet X lurking close to the Sun by poking a small hole in a piece of paper, holding it up in front of her face, and looking around the disk of the Sun for the alleged inbound interloper. Unfortunately, she said she didn't know any better and was concerned enough to do so... and ended up with permanent retinal damage in the process.

Possessing beliefs (even really odd ones) is one thing, and not necessarily bad; promoting nonsense which might cause harm to others is beyond reproach.

Heaven's Gate.

Waco.

Oklahoma City.

People die because of bad thinking. I aim to help.

Thanks everyone, you bring up some good points.

So beliefs can be dangerous if they cause undue harm or grief to people. Certainly any belief that advocates suicide or murder is at best morally suspect and at worst unethical or unlawful. (I try to leave the law out of belief as much as possible though... now that can get pretty scary) But what about positive beliefs that are not supported by science, for example, the teachings of Jesus or the Buddha. Now I have never seen anyone on this board try to debunk the words of Jesus or the beliefs of mainstream christians and buddhists but what about the many new age beliefs that don't involve taking drastic measures to prepare for some kind of pole shift thingamajig. Would you debunk the works of Rudolph Steiner, not including the modern woldorf schools. Or what about say the writings of Gurdjieff who believed that the sun, moon, and earth are alive and that humanity is food for the moon. (no more paranoia inducing than the fear of eternal damnation for the unsaved) If you would debunk these people, why, simply as an excercise, or because you don't believe people should think that way?

Also, if someone is seriously scared about planet X, while a good debunking can work wonders, if this fails, wouldn't it be more productive to explain to them why they shouldn't fear things they cannot control. After all an asteroid could kill us all tomorrow and there wouldn't be a thing we could do about it. One could point out that while planet X may exist, there is no more reason to believe that it will kill us in our lifetime than any other natural kind of disaster. What is the need for debunking in light of these alternatives?

Also, the healthcare industry would consider a genuine fear of planet X a sign of mental illness and would probably prescribe either an antipsychotic (if the Dx was schizo) or an SSRI (if the Dx was OCD). How do you treat the act of debunking in light of this?

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~SS

This seems like a separate issue. Giving people bad advice, even advice that will lead to injury or death can happen no matter what you believe. In fact, doesn't the law provide some protection from this kind of thing in certain situations. Like for example I teach someone how to make "rad fireworks" and they blow themselves up. On the other hand, I could tell my friend to jump of a bridge but I wouldn't be liable if he actually did it.

In the case of stairing at the sun I would say this is more of an issue of bad public safety education, not bad beliefs.

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~SS

I might be inclined to agree had it not been for this particular Planet X devotee deliberately broadcasting to people in a public arena (catering to believers) that they could "see it" by employing the unsafe procedure described above. Granted, it shouldn't require a Ph.D to determine that staring at a -26 mag star isn't healthy for one's eyes, and it's a shame that the woman did so -- but that was the result of irrational beliefs in a doomsday scenario which had no basis in objective reality.

I don't really think one board can handle the debunking of every crazy bit of non-critical thinking in the world. It would become way too large and impossible to manage or navigate through.

Discussions of religions often lead to anger and hurt and are very difficult to discuss, probably because so much of it is part of our daily lives.

In any case, it's against the rules of this board.

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"The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient."

Ok, well I think I got the answer to my question. I thank you for the discussion.

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~SS

You're welcome to hang around you know.

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"The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient."

Always happy to see new faces. Welcome to the board.

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Quaeso quousque humi defixa tua mens erit? Nonne aspicis, quae in templa veneris?

I had not seen this website before. Does Alex Jones run it? It is annoying to see how he relates almost any political news to his belief in the illuminati and the "New World Order". #-o

www.prisonplanet.com

__________________
"jiu-jitsu is perfect it's people who makes mistakes"

In a debunking mood? Check this site: http://www.sherdog.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=54

You will always find conspiracies there. Open an account and expose them. But careful, they may call you a 'government sheep".

Oh, I almost forgot. According to the sites with info about the illuminati: "governments will control us with microchips" . So, we had microchips to control the minds of people and I didn't even know it. I used to think they were still seen only in movies.

__________________
"jiu-jitsu is perfect it's people who makes mistakes"

In a debunking mood? Check this site: http://www.sherdog.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=54

You will always find conspiracies there. Open an account and expose them. But careful, they may call you a 'government sheep".

Well, who wouldn't go there for all that? If I were rich and powerful, I'd sure be there. Do you have to provide your own owl, or what?

Man, that's a hoot!

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A person's name, or a mark representing it, as signed personally or by deputy, as in subscribing a letter or other document.

Here's a post from a guy in sherdog.com, the site in my signature. He is a staunch believer that the illuminati are manipulating everything in the world . They could use North Korea to cause World War 3 and then establish their Satanic new World order:

NOt a threat, that's right, but they are a hornets nest, so if you deliberately step on them, they instantly become more than a threat.

I knew that it was best to throw a rock at a bees nest and maintain the proper distance.

Not a threat, but on the other hand they are a gernade. All that has to happen is for someone to pull the pin and they will explode into South Korea instantly, and who knows where it could go from there. What about Japan, China, and lol, Taiwan. India and Pakistan are only a hop skip and a jump away. Could it escalate all the way to there? If nukes are involved it could!

So what could happen with N. Korea? Think like a demon...what kind of trouble could you stir up to advance your insatiable desires for power, human suffering, and global domination?

Timing is everything. So Demon consults numerologist to find out when things are just right, and then OOOPS, POW, SURPRISE. Next thing you know, IT WAS THOSE OTHER GUYS.... Next thing you know, WAR

Iran is another such Gernade. lol Are they a threat???

Thank you drive through

Ha!, this guy always says we are all "sheep" because we believe everything the government says. I think he is the "sheep" of the woowoos.

__________________
"jiu-jitsu is perfect it's people who makes mistakes"

In a debunking mood? Check this site: http://www.sherdog.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=54

You will always find conspiracies there. Open an account and expose them. But careful, they may call you a 'government sheep".

Even though ~SS is gone and will probably never be back I think I will say a few things :roll:

*Ever since Nancy started people have quit their jobs and done many illegal activitys whilst "Preparing" for X

*People have killed their WHOLE familys trying to save them from X also

*People have KILLED THEMSELVES and innocents because of fear.

Those three are the reasons why I want to stop nancy from causing more chaos, so either sue her or debunk it all :wink:

I think she is responcable and should get LIFE in prison for all the pain and suffering she's caused.

Typical of the human condition to do what we do :wink:

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