Hi! New to this site and actually stumbled across it quite on accident. I love it! I've been a space junkie (and I use the term lightly, as I am no astrophysicist) since I was very small; this stuff fascinates me to no end. So, there's my intro; on to the question.
I am a sophmore in college and have recently decided on majoring in geology. So, in preparation during my summer break to take it on in the fall, I looked into some web resources to get a jumpstart on the semester (which is how I found this page.) I read along until something caught my eye: creationists seem to be somewhat of a taboo group on this site, and I became concerned.
Granted, there are some lunatics that will push their personal beliefs down your throat. However, I do not; personal is a key word, and I can't emphasize that more. I chose this field of study in order to learn more about the world and participate in the new and exciting things that we, the human race, are discovering daily about the world and/or universe we live in. Because I have a great respect for what we do know, I also am intrigued with what we do not. So, with that, I pose the question: in light of the fact that my personal beliefs may come in conflict with some mainstream scientific theory, does it mean that I would be a bad scientist? I am anxious to be a part of this forum, and I hope I do not offend with the question I ask. Thanks a lot!

Welcome to the board, mannisue. First, you have to know that you will never be discriminated against here for your beliefs. If that happens, I'll be one of the first to step in to defend you. That said, if you choose to discuss them, we will debate and examine those same beliefs. That's what being a scientist is all about. As long as you're willing to take an objective look at things (everything, including your beliefs, my beliefs, General Relativity -- everything) and base your decisions on what you determine to be true as a result of this examination, you'll make a fine scientist.

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Quaeso quousque humi defixa tua mens erit? Nonne aspicis, quae in templa veneris?

. . .base your decisions on what you determine to be true as a result of this examination, you'll make a fine scientist."


If there is anything I have learned in this life (and more so in school,) it is to be objective. Thanks, Supreme Canuck. I will be asking you LOTS of questions.

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If humanity only had a dime for every time it said, "hey, I thought we had that figured out..."

No problem. I think you'll find this is a great place to ask questions.

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Quaeso quousque humi defixa tua mens erit? Nonne aspicis, quae in templa veneris?

Of course, being a good, objective scientist entails being able and willing to modify your beleifs when confronted by a sufficient ammount evidence.

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Mwa ha ha haa!

- Lord Zentei

There are many scientists and logical reasoning people who still nevertheless hold some kind of religion, take acupuncture, watch WWF wrestling, etc.

It is not the problem it once was. Now, it's only a problem if you let them actually come into conflict. Most people seem to compartmentalize things, and don't take non-scientific beliefs too seriously, at least when doing science. A personal belief that is scientific is one that will change as new information is available, and always subject to critisism and review.

Insisting on using your own unique formulas for basic physics will get you into deep trouble because they get the wrong answer, and no amount of screaming and publicity will change that.

Take a look at http://www.timecube.com/. Would you hire this guy to build a bridge? I'd say his "personal beliefs" contradicting science indeed cause a problem. If my dentist tries to give me a homeopathic remedy, I'll pay him with a homeopathic cheque!

If anything used in your business of "doing science" is ignored or discarded because of personal belief, than you are indeed a bad scientist. Above all else, the scientific method is about review and updates, and the very definition of "right" is in repeatable experiments and observed data. To be a scientist, you must be able to perform the scientific method with respect to everything that affects your work.

The reason this site may seem anti-creationist is simply because many creationists are irrational, unobjective, and downright dishonest about conventional science.

From your first post you don't sound like that at all so I'm sure you'll get along fine here. I am often suprised to find out that a person I respect here for being highly intellligent and rational is also religious. That's my atheist prejudice coming out. The great thing about a place like this is that you can't hang around here long without losing some of your bigotry [ that's me talking about myself BTW ].

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There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand ternary, those who don't, and those waiting for a bus.
If logic doesn't work, then surely it does.

Hello! It isn't so much about creationists, though you certainly will find some outspoken people here. It is more about religious argument - which is against BaBB rules, since it tends to get out of hand and acomplishes very little. Discussions about the age of the earth, paleontology, and so on are fine, but scriptural quotations wouldn't be a good idea.

Questions are great. I think it would really depend on the nature of your beliefs, and your willingness to look at the evidence. I think a young earth creationist who wasn't willing to change their beliefs would have serious problems with geology. But depending on your beliefs, it may not be a big issue.

Welcome to the BABB, mannisue!

As others have mentioned, you won't be here long before you realize that the membership of the BABB encompases a wide range of beliefs and nonbelief. I feel quite confident that you'll find at least a few who come close to your worldview.

If you haven't done so already, click on the FAQ link at the top of this page. You'll get a good idea about what is and is not acceptable in discussions here. Another way is to take a look through some of the "locked" threads (there's a padlock symbol to the left of these) to see just how they got locked and why. (Often the last post by the Bad Astronomer himself will spell out exactly what went wrong.)

The BA is like a kind but stern father who lets his kids play as they see fit, until the line is crossed. It's usually not too hard to see where the line is, except sometimes people get too wound up to notice when they're crossing it... :wink:

P.S. your nickname wouldn't be a reference to a certain Johnny Cash song, would it?

HOLY WOW (no pun intended!) The gentleman responsible for that website is not only someone I wouldn't hire to build a bridge, he is also someone I would not let into my house. Remember the lunatics I mentioned? Enough said. 8)

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If humanity only had a dime for every time it said, "hey, I thought we had that figured out..."

#-o Exactly what Johnny Cash song are you referring to? :wink: Actually, my mother named me after a Barry Mannilow song.

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If humanity only had a dime for every time it said, "hey, I thought we had that figured out..."

A Boy Named Sue by Shel Silverstein, sung by Johnny Cash.

Welcome to the BABB!

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welcome to the board, as the others have said.

since you seem to be reasonable and intelligent (which don't always go hand-in-hand), can I ask what evidence you have seen in your studies that precludes evolution?

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"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Evolution is a very broad term. If we are discussing "Darwinism" or any other aspect of "from ape to man," then there really is nothing within my own knowledge that precludes that idea at all. I have heard of the "missing links" in this theory; however, I do not know the specifics. My education in this area is limited. If we are talking about the evolution of species in adaptation to their environment (forgive that the correct term has slipped my mind,) then I am in complete agreeance with it. If these two facets have a connection that maybe I am not making, then that is the lack of (but still in the process of obtaining) my education.

To a "creationist" such as I, to preclude a theory based on fact that is tangible, i.e., things we can see, touch, smell, etc. is not possible. My creationist beliefs can only be described as those things that I feel in my heart in connection with the "spiritual" facet of myself (the supernatural, or however you choose to label them.) Unlike most, as I have said, I will not try to bring these things into our discussions, as they are not of a truly "scientific" nature, therefore defeating our purpose here. But it is the very possibilities of what we may encounter in the future, the things we have yet to discover, the forces that we are just beginning to understand, that not only make me want to be a part of the scientific community even more, but make me believe more than anything that anything is possible!

BTW, you guys are truly amazing. I have been reading some different threads on this board. I am convinced that I will learn much from you. Thanks! =D>

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If humanity only had a dime for every time it said, "hey, I thought we had that figured out..."

It took me about two hours to figure that out. But, see, I would be the girl named sue -- the song wouldn't be as much fun like that, would it?

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If humanity only had a dime for every time it said, "hey, I thought we had that figured out..."

Welcome aboard. Perhaps TalkOrigins might assist. (I'd recommend beginning with the main FAQ and proceeding from there.)

First off, welcome mannisue to the BABB.

Samll nitpick, "ape to man" isn't correct. To ape AND man along different paths from a common ancestor is more correct.

The term is Natural Selection.

As Wolverine pointed out, the talkorigins FAQ is very helpful. In addition, this site (Which includes the talkorigins FAQ) also has several other sites (including some creation sites) for you to look over.

There are some very sharp, intelligent, and skeptical people here, which is why you may have gotten the idea that creationists aren't welcome. It's not that creationists aren't welcome, its usually a case of creationsists not being able to scientifically support or sufficiently answer questions about their contentions.

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Some try to tell me, thoughts they cannot defend,... - Moody Blues.

Neptune- The original Dark Matter.

The author feels that this technique of deliberately lying will actually make it easier for you to learn the ideas. - Donald Knuth

mannisue, is it safe to say that you believe in Darwinian evolution? Big Bang theory? If your belief is that God simply created the universe, it isn't what is generally termed creationism. Creationism usually refers to the belief that God created everything, including humans, fully formed in a very short amount of time.

No need to respond to this, as it is personal, but where do you stand? I only ask so that I can better understand where you are coming from.

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Quaeso quousque humi defixa tua mens erit? Nonne aspicis, quae in templa veneris?

According to my sources
If supernatural forces exist, then they become as much part of science as nuclear fission did, when prior it was dismissed by Einstein as "trying to shoot birds in the dark in a country where there are very few birds"

I do remember though in an interview Phil gave on a radioshow I heard through the net (is it still available :-? ) he did use the phrase IIRC "Don't get me started on Creationists"

So both sides can form entrenched views.

One concept is assumed true, all evidence must be interpreted to support that concept.

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GIRL NAMED SAM

My momma left home when I was three,
And she didn't leave much to Pa and me...
Just this old guitar and a half-eaten can of Spam.
Now, I don't blame her cause she run and hid,
But the meanest thing that she ever did
Was before she left, she went and named me 'Sam'.

Well, she must o' thought that is was quite a joke,
And it got a lot of laughs from a' lots of folk.
It seems I fought my whole life for who I am.
Some guy would giggle and I'd get red,
And some gal'd laugh and I'd bust her head.
I tell ya, life ain't easy for a girl named 'Sam'.

Well, I grew up quick and I grew up mean,
My purse got hard and my wits got keen.
I'd roam from town to town to hide my shame.
But I made me a vow to the moon and stars
That I'd search the beauty parlors and health spas,
And kill the woman that give me that awful name.

Well, it was Gatlinburg in mid-summer
And I just hit town, and missing breakfast was a bummer.
I thought I'd stop and have some eggs and ham.
At an old restaurant on a street of tar,
There in an apron, by a salad bar,
Stood the dirty, mangy dog that named me 'Sam'.

Well, I knew that cobra was my own sweet mom
From a picture my pa had, of their senior prom
And I knew that mascara on her lashes and her evil eye.
She was petite and chic and aloof and bold,
And I looked at her and my blood ran cold,
And I said: "My name is 'Sam! That’s who I am!! Now you gonna die!"

Well, I slapped her hard right on the cheek,
And she turned her head, without even a squeak
She come up with a file and cut off a piece of my earring.
But I busted a slap right across her chops
And we crashed to the floor while someone called the cops,
Scatching, while the tourists couldn’t believe what they were hearing.

I tell ya, I've fought tougher dames,
But I really can't remember their names,
She clawed like a tiger and she bit like I was prey.
I heard her laugh and then I heard her swear,
After I had knotted up her underwear,
She stood there lookin' as I pulled out my pepper spray.

And she said: "Daughter, this world is rough,
And if a woman's gonna make it, she's gotta be tough,
And I know I wouldn't be there to help ya along.
So I give ya that name and I said good-bye.
I knew you'd have to get tough or die,
And it's that name that helped to make you strong."

She said: "Now you just fought one hell of a fight,
And I know you hate me, and you got the right
To kill me now, wouldn't blame you, sure as my name is Pam.
But ya ought to thank me, before I die,
For the gravel in ya guts and the spit in ya eye
Cause I'm the *&^&%@*#$ that named you 'Sam'."

I got all choked up and stopped feeling hostile
And I called her my ma, she said “Daughter” with a smile,
And I come away with a different idea of who I am.
And I think about her, now and then,
Every time I try and every time I win,
And if I ever have a daughter, I think I'm gonna name her
Barbara or Geraldine! Anything but Sam! I still hate that name!



(Appy polly loggies to Shel Silverstein, Elizabeth Montgomery, and, of course, Groucho Marx)

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Wow...


Welcome to the forum. We are really pretty open to ideas, but we also have pretty high standards for accepting them. I would agree that we might have entrenched ideas, but often they are entrenched the same way a path across a field is. it is worn down because it is the best path across the field. The rest of the wilderness languishes in weeds.

Typical creatinist views such as the Earth is 7000 years old and was made in a week, or that man just appeared whole one day in the woods, require evidence to support them before acceptance. We don't object to the claim being made so much as there not being any evidence to support it.

The scientific community is often charged with accepting something as fact when it remains unproven, but in fact the whole process of science is to try to prove any idea wrong. We hypothesize something then experiment to see if it is true. Once something has withstood assault after assault after assault, it become accepted.

Within my lifetime, the concept of plate tectonics and motion of continents went from silly whacko notion to accepted as the way things are. Even still controversial things like the big bang theory are for the most part accepted with the main questions in the details now. ALl these things happened because scientists chipped away at existing notions and new notions and wound up with what's left.

Whether it is some redshift anomaly is a far distant galaxy or a new subatomic particle, the first thing that happens is science tries to find out if it could be something other than what it first seemed.

You mean one side is supported by the evidence and is scientific?

Do you have problems with Astronomy like you do with Biology?

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Be nice. He might suffering from SDS (soup deficiency syndrome). :wink: 8)

Meanwhile,

I'd like to know since when science assumed all its data are true and all observational and experimental results must be interpreted to support those data. Either science has done a 180, or that statement is false.

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I was trying to sum up a generic situation where you have two opposing theories, sponsored by their adherents.

Not just the Creation / Evolution debate

As for Astronomy v Biology

I just try and point out what are possible flaws and possible anomolies with the most popular view of how things were, in any scientific discipline. (e.g The Big Bang is the ultimate free lunch where nothing gives rise to something in apparent contradiction to the first law of Thermodynamics)

I play Advocatus Diaboli a lot 8-[

Not everything is as cut and dry as people think it is, and that includes the General Theory of Evolution and theories about the origin of the Universe

Edit to add It was Country Vegetable today

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My goodness, ya'll certaintly do start circling once creationism is mentioned. Relax, I think she just wanted to test the waters and say hello. I don't think she was denoucing evolution as heracy or anything. Where's my GLP popcorn gif?
Ah, here we go...

Have I mentioned how much I like the movie Armagedon? What a great flick. choochoo

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You're a coward and a liar and a thOOF - Bart Sibrel

Yo, Texican!



My, how you folks start gettin' all uppity and cirlcin' 'cause someone lays out the rules of scientific inquiry.

Yeah, we're uppity all right. Check out my uppity parody of that Cash song!

Yup, we're just pilin' on her, ripping that creationist t' shreds.

Right.

Love Armageddon? Too much Lone Star mebbe? How're things in Waco, pardner? :wink:

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I didn't say I loved Armagedon, I said I liked it.

Gees, I lived in Waco for a while. Talk about a screwed up economy, sheesh. Big colleges do not belong in small cities. SA is for me.

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You're a coward and a liar and a thOOF - Bart Sibrel

Most University towns in the UK tend to be dominated by their colleges. Oxford, Cambridge, Durham spring to mind, quite small cities with large student populations.

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Welcome, mannisue!

My personal beliefs came in conflict with mainstream scientific theory, and mainstream scientific theory eventually won. This board was a small, but significant, part of all that. And, one of the main reasons I eventually became a member of this board was my observation from the beginning (several years ago) that people with non-mainstream views were treated very fairly here. Back when I was a lurker, there were even a few YECs (Young-Earth Creationists, which is what I was for a long time) around, and it was a great place to see how the various arguments worked out.

I hope you enjoy your time here.

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"I am Meteora, supreme goddess of weather" - Meteora, in The Unchained Goddess

One nice thing about being a meteorologist who also likes astronomy is that the sky is always interesting!

As has been said a few times, creationism is only taboo here as much as any religious discussion. Since faith is a matter of faith, and as such prides itself on not needing or wanting evidence to support it, it's pretty much impossible to discuss here. People who try end up getting very insulted, and eventually either leave, or take a hissy fit and get removed.

If you're going to argue that the Big Bang is a crock because the LORD created the universe in a few days, then you're going to be asked A) how this conflicts with the BB in your mind, and B) what evidence you have that suggests the BB never occured. It's usually at that point the discussion ends, and the snide comments and flames begin, and the ban comes down. THAT is why people don't talk religion (or politics) here.

[edit]
Also, I should point out that creationism isn't an ATM topic. First and foremost, in the US anyway, it appears to be very chic right now. Secondly, it's not a scientific topic. This belonds in BABBling

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You can't take the sky from me.