We could probably also add that - lots of curiosity in some people, lots of apathy in others. Curiosity is what led me to this site; curiosity is also what led me to find out about other religions as I was born [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] and raised a Catholic. If we could rely on the curiosity of the individual, it probably wouldn't matter what was taught in schools - it would be like having a baseline for comparison. Like Conrad says on Page 2, it's not really an issue over here - when I did Religious Education at high school (13-18 years old), our teacher was very keen to teach us about Hinduism above everything else. Lessons could then provide the stimulation for further exploration.

_________________
"I just like to say Quark a lot. Quark,quark,quark,quark."

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hemlock on 2002-08-29 06:29 ]</font>

DJ
BTW: Have you ever seen the process to make vinyl? (I am guilty, there's probably some on my telescope somewhere.)

What is your point?

__________________
Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.
Isaac Asimov

There's something peculiar about America. As I understand it, the average citizen is much more religiously active than in most of the rest of the industrialized world. The big reason seems to be the large number of different sects coexisting here. This creates a kind of "competition", propelling people to promote their own particular brand of belief. In other countries, especially Europe, there're only one or two major sects, usually the ones that were once state-sponsored, and therefore much less need or desire for evangelization.

__________________
...And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped. --Sir Bedevere

It is, with few exceptions, one of the most horribly polluting substances to produce on this earth. <emphatic period>

Science will back me up to say we should no longer be producing something like this, and should be finding alternatives. Matter of fact, the harm that this one substance alone causes should be reason for the populace to stand up and scream "STOP!" I don't need any more oven gloves!

This is a good use of science. But, more often it takes the folks in robes with ancient texts to motivate a people to stop things sometimes.

DJ

I still don't see the correlation between an ethical base and religion.


-Adam

American southern preachers almost never spoke out against slavery. Neither the Pope nor the the protestant churches in Germany had much to say against the Naxis while they were butchering millions. The religious leaders on both sides in the middle east are more likely to be stumping for more martyrs than for a peaceful solution. Historically, the men in the robes with the ancient texts have been as likely to be found ordering bloodshed and barbarity as opposing it.

Back to the original topic...

Hmm... my question would be: which evolutionary interpretations and which biblical interpretations? I hope it isn't out of date darwinism with out of date evidences, along with 4004BC-style young earth creationism with out of date evidences.

[In response to Esprich's post]

Power corrupts....

You notice how the real spiritual leaders, the ones that people truly admire (i.e. Jesus Christ, Buddha, Ghandi, St. Francis of Assissi, Mother Theresa) are the ones who purposely denied themselves the riches of this world, the pleasures of this life, positions of political power, and the like, but invested themselves in caring for others, particularly for the poor and the needy?

Something to think about.

_________________
"All that is gold does not glitter / Not all those who wander are lost..."

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: nebularain on 2002-08-30 00:02 ]</font>

To be fair, they didn't have any means to oppose injustice.

There is a truism: the steam engine ended slavery.

(And created the capitalist "robber baron.")

(In the same way, the water mill created the feudal lord... And modern medicine made women equal...)

It isn't fair to blame religion, per se, when the entire social, economic, and technological environment has such an overwhelming influence on our institutions.

Silas

I don't think anyone has said religion is the root of all evil.

But when hearing statements implying religion is the source of all morality, it's hard not to call a person on it.
_________________
Evolution is just a theory. Better fasten your seatbelt, so is gravity.
Beskeptigal.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: beskeptical on 2002-08-30 03:33 ]</font>

I was taught creationism at school here in the UK(amongst other beliefs), but it was in my religious studies class.These classes were not about which religion is correct or anything like that and had no interest in promoting any for of worship they were more a study of what cultures belive and how that affects them.
I was taught about the big bang and evolution in my science class.
There was none of this fuss because the religous beliefs were being discussed in an appropriate forum. I`ve got no problem with kids learning in school what various people around the world belive,but when you take that out of the appropriate classroom and try to present it as cast iron fact its a different matter.

"giving equal weight to evolution and biblical interpretations"
I think you should have equal evidence before you give equal weight to anything. Does the same school board give equal weight to biblical interpretations and interpretations of vedic texts etc?

"saying that evolution 'is a theory, not a fact' and should be 'approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered.' "
Shouldnt everything be approached with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered whether it be evolution creationism or anything else.

I agree jumbo...

...but some people can take things too far

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...&e=41&ncid=757

_________________
"I just like to say Quark a lot. Quark,quark,quark,quark."

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hemlock on 2002-08-30 07:38 ]</font>

Which "vinyl"?

Vinyl is the name given to the atomic bond within a molecule. You need to specify which molecule you mean, and which form... monomer or polymer.

Also, I'd be very careful with a blanket statement like "Science will back me up..." Do you mean the discipline? Please explain. Or scientists? Please be specific.

(In case you're wondering, you have entered my realm and touched a "hot button." If you really want to pursue this, you will need to marshall your resources and leave the generalities and emotional appeals at home.)

__________________
Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.
Isaac Asimov

Jim, my comment was to indicate that the production of PVC is nasty, science made it possible, and also has the ability to undo it.
It's completely off-topic, and not relevant except in context.
Sorry to hit your tripwire.

"PVC is known as the poison plastic because it poses serious threats to human health and the environment. When PVC is produced or burned, DIOXIN is created. Dioxin is one of the most toxic chemicals ever produced"

http://www.acereport.org/oxy1.html

DJ

I was involved in the manufacture of PVC resins for about 15 years. It is no more hazardous or polluting than any other chemical manufacturing process, safer and less than many. In fact, it is considerably safer and less polluting than, say, meat packing.

The use of PVC for conveyor belts in coal mines has saved thousands of lives since its first use. Its use in the medical field (IV bags and tubing) has saved millions.

Yes, when PVC burns it can release toxic vapors, but that's common with many natural and manmade materials. (BTW, ACE is wrong; dioxin is not a by-product of the production or combustion of PVC.)
http://www.vinylinfo.org/pressmateri...glad.html#fire

You're right, this specific topic is not relevant to this Board, but you made a blanket accusation and have yet to support it. Either present your supporting information, or back off. That is a standing rule on this Board.

__________________
Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.
Isaac Asimov

Seems we have competing info. I can probably find as many websites as you can supporting either side. So much for science once again being our help. Guess you're OK with acceptable losses, much like the airline industry. You are correct, I cannot defend that position, and you can.

DJ


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DJ on 2002-08-31 20:54 ]</font>

So let me strap on my flak jacket and jump into a discussion that I am not really a party to.

I think DJ's point--maybe--is that technology is neither inherently good or bad; that distinction comes from the application of technology. Thus, we look to sources outside of science, ie: morality, to guide us in applying lasers, knives, chewing gum and what have you.

If that is his point, I think it's rational and well-founded. If it's not, I'll just slink back into my corner and shut up.

__________________
PC load letter? What the @%$# does that mean?

My apologies in advance to the Webmaster. I have been challenged, and need to defend my honor. I CAN do basic research on the internet, and do feel Jim is at odds with a very basic search I performed on the topic.

Jim, there are a lot of experts here too. Can you help me reconcile, and possibly suggest another place to do it? The BABB needs to stay on target.

DJ

Pub 1-06 - List of Resolutions.qxd (PDF) - ... 1999 PVC, Dioxin, Incineration American Nurses Association 1997 PVC, Incineration, Mercury American Public Health Association Nov. ...
http://www.noharm.org/library/docs/G...ances_on_P.pdf Search within this site


"Greenpeace Toxics Report - Dioxin From Cradle to Grave - TOC - ... Rigo, et. al. Study: Science for Sale. 3. PVC's Role in Dioxin Formation. The PVC Lifecycle. PVC in Incinerators Municipal Waste Incinerators ...
http://www.greenpeace.org/~usa/repor...le/dcgtoc.html Search within this site


PVC poly vinyl chloride = dioxin + health and enviornmental ... - PVC = poly vinyl chloride = Dioxin. ... Nike on phasing out PVC. PVC & Dioxin: Enough Is Enough. Chemicals Used in IV Bags Pose Risk to Patients. ...
http://shirtmagic.com/PVC.htm Search within this site


PVC & Dioxin: Enough Is Enough - PVC & Dioxin: Enough Is Enough. Home. The information on this website is not a substitute for diagnosis and treatment by a qualified, licensed professional. ...
http://www.garynull.com/Documents/er..._is_enough.htm Search within this site


Links to chlorine/PVC related web sites - ... Overview of Archive of postings to DIOXIN-L by thread. An anti-PVC and chlorine action forum. Dioxin homepage. Anti-PVC as a dioxin"source". ...
http://www.ping.be/~ping5859/links.html Search within this site


"Greenpeace Toxics Report - Dioxin From Cradle to Grave - ... - ... The report is divided into the following sections: (1) the health threats posed by dioxin; (2) strategies for dioxin prevention; (3) the PVC-dioxin pollution ...
http://archive.greenpeace.org/~usa/r.../dcgintro.html Search within this site


Dioxin - ... to house siding to plumbing pipes to wallpaper, we are literally surrounded by PVC. When these chemicals and plastics are manufactured or burned, dioxin is ...
http://www.cqs.com/edioxin.htm Search within this site


PVC/dioxin conference in Lake Charles, Registration for - [Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index] PVC/dioxin conference in Lake Charles, Registration for. ...
http://lists.essential.org/1998/dioxin-l/msg00710.html Search within this site


Dioxin : (PDF) - ... replacing PVC with alternative materials was estimated to lead to a 15- fold increase in domestic revenues and a 25-fold increase in jobs. Effects of Dioxin ...
http://www.greenpeaceusa.org/media/f...ets/dioxin.pdf Search within this site


PVC Production and Dioxin - ... ul US government documents reveal USEPA's responses to the dioxin/PVC connection as follows: ... TIME FOR ACTION ON PVC AND DIOXIN. ...
http://www.rox.com/j/articles/dioxins/pvc.html


Greenaction Zero Dioxin Home Page - ... Victory! San Francisco Board of Supervisors Join City Council of Oakland in Voting Unanimously for resolution on Zero Dioxin and Phase-out of PVC Plastics! ...
http://www.greenaction.org/zerodioxin/index.shtml Search within this site


Dioxiny - ... Releases and Transfers Register, systém dokumentace zne?i?t?ní.); Termín zákazu PVC v ... Flintshire, UK); EPA draft report cites cancer risks from dioxin; ...
http://www.ecn.cz/dioxin/ Search within this site


“PVC: A Primary contributor to the US Dioxin Burden.” - ... A compelling body of evidence suggests “USEPA has been aware of the generation of that throughout its entire lifecycle, PVC dioxin and PCBs during PVC ...
http://www.workonwaste.org/wastenots/wn314.htm Search within this site


Environment News Service: Dioxin Named a Known Carcinogen - ... Fires, like this one at a PVC plastics plant in Canada, can release enormous amounts of dioxin and other toxins into the air (Photo courtesy Greenpeace). ...
http://ens.lycos.com/ens/jan2001/2001L-01-24-06.html Search within this site


WHAT IS DIOXIN? (PDF) - ... Exposure When medical facilities burn their waste containing chlorinated plastics like PVC, dioxin will be emitted from the smokestacks of the incinerator. ...
http://www.essentialaction.org/waste...ish/dioxin.pdf Search within this site


DIOXIN - ... The major sources of dioxin come from the incineration (burning) of chlorine-containing plastics, the most common being PVC [polyvinyl chloride or poly ...
http://home.school.net.hk/~chemmag/i...nne/DIOXIN.htm Search within this site


PVC / Vinyl #3 the "Worst" Plastic for the Environment - ... In addition to evidence linking PVC to global dioxin contamination, Greenpeace predicted that studies to be released later this year will prove that PVC cannot ...
http://www.globalstewards.org/pvc.htm


CorpWatchIndia.org - Issues - Toxics - Articles - PVC: The Poison ... - ... Dioxin: PVC's Lethal Legacy. Dioxin and dioxin-like compounds are unintentionally created whenever chlorine-based chemicals are produced, used or burned. ...
http://www.corpwatchindia.org/issues...articleid=1786 Search within this site


MASSPIRG: PVC Packaging: Section 3: PVC and Dioxin - ... The Link Between PVC and Dioxin. ... April 1997 p. 2. 52 Rice B. Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC) Plastic: Primary Contributor to the Global Dioxin Crisis. Greenpeace. ...
http://www.masspirg.org/enviro/sw/pvc/page4.htm Search within this site


Flipside - 09/26/98 - PVC & DIOXIN: ENOUGH IS ENOUGH - PVC & DIOXIN: ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. by Charlie Cray and Monique Harden*. Shintech, the Japanese chemical company, has been trying since 1996 to locate 3 factories ...
http://www.flipside.org/vol1/sep98/se98w403.htm Search within this site



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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DJ on 2002-08-31 20:58 ]</font>

Honey, never apologize for posting the fruits of research, no matter how many virtual wheelbarrows it takes to trundle it into the thread. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

However, it's fundies who are pressing for that sort of thing, and they profess to believe in moral absolutes.

DJ, I can see where you get your opinion about PVC; most of the sources you linked are openly "pro-environment," "anti-"industry" sites. (I’m surprised you missed Turner Toys. They manufacture wooden toys and have lots of information about PVC toys on their site.) They have a very definite agenda, and aren’t afraid to use dramatic tactics to achieve it. (I still remember the time Greenpeace attempted to insert plumber's plugs into several plant outfalls, and then shut down rush hour traffic by trying to hang a banner from the Mississippi River bridge. Subtlety is not their forte.) They also tend to ignore data that refutes their position; a good researcher will include that data and explain why it is wrong or irrelevant.

You should spend a little time reading the other side of the issue. Yes, you can claim that they are "anti-environment" and "pro-industry," but they do discuss the other side's case and offer data to dispute it. There are also other sources which can be considered at least close to neutral... like the US EPA of the US Surgeon General. Both these agencies have issued reports stating that the claims made against PVC are at best exaggerated.

I doubt they will sway you, but read them anyway; at least you can say your research is rounded and covers both sides.

You list several web sites as your research. I can offer some counterpoint to that, but unfortunately most of my information comes – not from the Internet or environmental pamphlets, but – from the people who conducted the research. Their reports are hard copy and cannot be linked, although many have been published or issued to the government. The people I have had the opportunity to hear and/or meet did not come across as industry-shills, but as dedicated and determined scientists and engineers.

You seem to be focusing on claims of dioxin pollution from PVC. I stated earlier that PVC did not produce dioxin as a by-product of manufacture or combustion. I should have been more explicit.

Dioxin can be generated during PVC* manufacture, but in very small amounts (it's considered a contaminant more than a by-product). A 1998 study conducted by the Vinyl Institute and submitted to the EPA found 24.3 grams of dioxin released annually to the environment; this is nationwide for a product manufactured in the millions of pounds. The EPA estimates about 3,000 grams of dioxin is released every year, so the industrial component is less than 1% of that. The remainder comes from municipal waste incinerators (An American Society of Mechanical Engineers' 1995 study showed the design and operating conditions of an incinerator – not the vinyl content of its waste – are the determining factors in dioxin generation and emission. The EPA has been working on this with new regulations), backyard trash burning, and landfill and forest fires, and from the combustion of chlorine-containing compounds in general, not exclusively from the combustion of PVC.

One of your links talks about the risks of PVC in medical IVs. This risk is actually associated with the plasticizer used, phthalate compounds. This was determined not to be a hazard by the Surgeon General's office in 1999.

PVC coatings are used to coat everything from bridges (think Golden Gate) to submarines to furniture (strippable protective coatings for shipment) to the inside of beverage cans. That last use means the coatings must pass FDA guidelines for migration of chemicals. Ditto its use as a food wrap and potable water piping.

You're right, this topic is really not germaine to this Board. We have both stated our cases; you won't convince me and I won't convince you. Let's leave it there.

http://www.vinylinfo.org/

http://www.pacia.org.au/Environment/10_facts.html

http://www.pacia.org.au/Environment/CSIROReport2001.pdf (An excellent discussion on the dioxin issue.)

http://www.pacia.org.au/Environment/GreenPaper-PVC.PDF (A counter to the EU Commission Green Paper.)


_________________
<font color=000099>Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.</font>
Isaac Asimov

* To be painfully explicit, no dioxins are produced during the manufacture of PVC; they are produced in very low quantitities during the manufacture of ethylene dichloride which is then processed into vinyl chloride which is then polymerized into PVC. The issue of dioxins and PVC itself comes only in the combustion or incineration of PVC. Dioxins, BTW, are naturally occurring and are also produced during the combustion of any chlorine containing organic (hence, the forest fires reference above).

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jim on 2002-09-04 12:08 ]</font>

I'm staying out of this one because I don't have time to check the links for validity. But I must comment on this statement.

It's quality not quantity when you want to back up your statements of 'fact'. Anyone with the time can make a web page, and they can put whatever junk they believe on it, including fake research citations. [Being a dot org site doesn't provide any assurances of credibility, (or incredibility), though I'm not saying that's what you had believed.]

Sorting reliable sites from unreliable sites is a critical skill these days. At least be suspcicious of any facts not supported with research. I look for research I can review directly to see if it really supports the conclusions attributed to it by whoever is citing it to back up their 'facts'.

The oatbran nonsense is a good example. Marketers jumped on the research that oatbran lowers cholesterol, therefore, it lowers heart disease risk. But in the actual research, oatbran only showed a very small reduction in cholesterol and the researchers concluded it wasn't significant enough to draw any conclusions on its benefits yet. To this day the benefits of oatbran have not been substantiated, yet common knowledge has adopted it as 'fact'

_________________
Evolution is just a theory. Better fasten your seatbelt, so is gravity.
Beskeptigal.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: beskeptical on 2002-09-03 15:02 ]</font>