Refering to the article it states that 2 separate groups have released these findings so far so I don't think you can call it a single finding. I'm sure there will be more to come if researchers gain enough interest in it. I hope it doesn't get filed away in the "It can't be" basket.

As for the remarks about every Tom, Dick and Harry having access... I think most smaller observatories do have a small amount of time set aside for public use. I will investigate this further to see if there is anything more to this. I remember in the last city I lived, there definitely was public access time for the telescope, although it was very tough to get a booking if I remember correctly. Apparently now is not the best time to find PX now as it is in the Orion constellation (per Zetas coordinates) which is too close to the Sun right now if I'm not mistaken. I did give Nancy a hard time about her statements that it would be detectable on small observatory scopes in mid 2002... which is right about now (July Aug). When she was on the Art Bell show she stated that it would not be visible because of the position of Orion during the SUmmer months. (Behind the Sun) I said something to effect like "how convenient that it is out of sight at the time when you said there would be viewing" or something like that. She obviously didn't like that as she Emailed back with a sharp retort. I'm sorta kinda right on the centerline on this thing, maybe leaning a little towards the side of it being real. There's just too many little bits that make you stop and think about it at least for me and what I've dug up on this.

I noticed that no one has responded to my scenario that there is a brown dwarf twin to our Sun and that PX is a captured rogue that orbits figure 8 style between them.
Anyone ???
11:11

Probably because such an orbit would be too unstable. Planet X would have been slung out of the system in a short time.


-Adam

Wow! What a great bulletin board. This forum is super interesting and has kept me up far past my bedtime.
I wound up here because I work at a planetarium and someone in the audience today (oops make that yesterday--I've got to get to bed) said she'd recently seen news about a tenth planet in our Solar system. I said no--lot's of speculating, no finding as yet. But then I really haven't been paying much attention to the rumor mill this summer so I thought I'd look into it.

I don't have anything to add to the Niberu discussion at this point but the "in a Universe abounding with dualities" remark in the first post caught my eye because I've heard a lot of people talk about dualities and after thinking about it (ok I've only thought about it for five minutes)I'm wondering what exactly all these abundent dualities are that the Universe is abounding with in all of its abundence. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

I assume that a duality is two things that always exist together.

Ok. The obvious: life and death.

Also: light and dark (although that one seems a little tenuous).

What else? I can't think of anything else. What are all the dualities that I'm missing which should spur us (once we've defined this phenomenon and called it gravity) to search for anti-gravity?

Again, this is a great bulletin board! I'm completly out of my depth on most of the math and physics around here but it's still very interesting to read.

Well, the big problem with this is that now, instead of hypothesizing one unknown world, you now have two unproven objects supposedly existing without our knowledge. Since we as yet don't have any proof that any brown dwarf exists, we can't even begin to consider the idea of a planet obiting in conjunction with it. It's just another unnecessary variable complicating the matter. Prove the first before hypothesizing the second.

Other problems come from the type of orbit you are hypothesizing. Three body interactions would almost never result in a simple stable figure-eight alignment. No, any planet trying to orbit two bodies at once would be most likely be swung about in a highly irregular and very unstable path. The only stable orbits would be close to one or another of the stars, or in a very wide circular orbit around the whole system's center of mass, one so far out as to be almost in the next star system, which could be easily perturbed by other passing stars.

The BA's review of The Phantom Menace has a good rundown on the possible orbits around a dual-sun system that is fairly applicable here.

Another problem is that this world is supposed to be habitable. Any kind of eccentric orbit would take the planet too far out to be sufficiently warmed by the Sun, and the long orbit around the entire system would be even worse. This is true of any Nibiru theory that has the planet hiding at extreme distances. There might be sufficent heating for a planet in a close orbit around a brown dwarf however, if one were to be shown to exist.

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...And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped. --Sir Bedevere

Hi Plane-arium. Welcome to our board. I hope you will find lots of interesting topics to discuss here. But beware, it's very addictive. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

That's a good question you raised. I also can't come up with any other true dualities off the top of my head. Maybe someone else here can give some good examples.

The human mind naturally thinks in terms of dualities. Many of them are only applicable in the realm of everyday experience though. Up-down, day-night, in-out. These are only dualities when looked at in earthly terms. Others are actually mistaken or narrow perceptions of other phenomena. Hot-cold, and heavy-light for example, are not true dualities, they are only arbitrary divisions.

In any case, the argument for duality is not a very strong one because either-or duality is not the only form of organization in the universe. Many effects function on a continuum basis, for example. Light runs from long-wave infrared to very-short-wave gamma rays. There is no duality involved at all. Heat is another. It's not cold-or-hot, it's a range from cold to hot.

Another example is things that only exist in a single state. The "strong force" in physics, that holds the nuclei of atoms together, is one. There doesn't seem to be any kind of "anti-strong-force" (and I sure hope there isn't), it exists all alone. Since the original post was about the force of gravity, and gravity is thought to be another force just like the strong and weak forces, it seems to me that it probably doesn't have a dual nature either.

There's just no basis for saying that an opposite must exist, because many other phenomena also exist without duality.

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<font size="-1">PLEASE NOTE: Some quantum physics theories suggest that when the consumer is not directly observing this product, it may cease to exist or will exist only in a vague and undetermined state.</font>

<font size="-1">(corrected a mistake)</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: David Hall on 2002-08-28 08:25 ]</font>

Hi, Plane-arium!
I know a couple other dualities: positive and negative, attraction and repulsion.

Then there's always:
"To everything there is a season...a time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to uproot that which was planted, ... a time to weep and a time to laugh, ... a time to keep silent and a time to speak, ...." (Ecclesiates ch. 3)

*********************************************
XoFFoX, you might enjoy checking out this this thread we played with not too long ago:
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/vi...803&forum=2&16
Have fun! [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

__________________
"As I lay beneath the Southern Cross, the stars tell more than I could" . . . David Meece

Ecclesiastes? I thought it was The Byrds.
[img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]



<font size="-1">(It's a joke. I know the truth.)</font>

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...And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped. --Sir Bedevere

Pete Seeger

The most obvious duality to me is the particle/wave nature of matter. Interested people can do a web search on this; I'm not up for an essay on quantum duality at this exact moment. [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Boy, now I've had duality on the brain all day and I've pretty much convinced myself that there really aren't any dualities except life and death. There probably can't be life without death, although this might not be true. There definately can't be death without life.

Light and dark I'm not sure about. If the universe keeps expanding forever, will there be a point trillions of years from now when all the stars have gone out and electromagnetism has petered into nothingness and there is this "something" which we call the universe and it's totally dark?

As to the wave/particle duality of matter is that an actual duality or is it just that that's the only way we can describe matter? Matter isn't a wave and it isn't a particle it's something else which we approximate by invoking a wave/particle duality.

Anyway--I know I'm pushing the point too far and I won't blather on about it. This is not the Bad Duality Bulletin Board after all. What I was trying to say in the earlier post was that most things are not obvious (except The Byrds are obviously not very good [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] ), and if we walk around thinking that science dudes are obviously close-minded or (as our beloved governor of Minnesota, Jesse the Body, once said) religion is a crutch for the weak-minded than we probably haven't taken a moment to think things through.

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She gave up trying to understand herself, and joined the vast armies of the benighted, who follow neither the heart nor the brain, and march to their destiny by catch-words.
--E.M. Forester

One last word on dualities since I initially brought it up. This is going to get into Metaphysics here and I'm sure will turn some of your stomachs. When viewing the Universe from this dimension (3rd Dimension/Density) there will be what appears to be duality. It's an illusion of sorts. Light/Dark, Positive/Negative, Male/Female, Life/Death etc. When you view the Universe from higher densities or dimensions the dualities no longer exist due to the effect of moving back to the Oneness that was before the One divided itself into two distinct energies, one counter-clockwise in rotation the other clockwise. Paradoxes fall into the same classification as dualities when it comes to the perception of them. Moving from 3rd to 4th density resolves all paradoxes that present themselves in 3rd density. The Universe is an eight dimensional construct representing the octave. Matter is just a vibration of aetheric energies at different frequencies. The frequency of these energies can be perceived as light, sound and geometry all of which are directly harmonic in relationship to the other. ie. a certain frequency of light has a harmonic equivalent sound frequency and a harmonic geometry. This kinda brings me to the comment on wave/particle traits of matter. The reason that matter can exhibit wave traits is because it is vibrating aetheric energy and this aether is like a fluid and travels in spiral waves. In addition to this, matter exists in all 8 dimensions simultaneously or close to it. Each unit, be it atom or subatomic unit, vibrate through each density at incredible speeds, what appears to be simultaneous to us. There was a curious finding by some physicists these days that some particles, as they are mistakenly called, blink in and out of existence at very rapid intervals. They haven't figured out where they are going yet but they will eventually discover that they are vibrating through the 8 densities at incredible speeds. In order to swallow any of this one has to completely let go of the notion that matter is made up of hard physical particles. You must adopt the original thinking of great scientists just before and after the turn of the century. (turn over to 20th) Tesla, Maxwell, Keely, Kosyrev just to name a few. These scientists were developing their theories based on a fluidic aether energy that permeates the entire Universe. The duality thing comes into the picture because there is energy flow away from the center of the Universe (Great Central Sun) and when it reaches the outermost boundary (and there is one) then the energy is bounced back to the center. If you can accept that gravity is an effect of this aether flow in one direction then the opposite effect must follow as there are 2 directions of energy flow ... out and in. Most of you here are astronomers and you may be aware that stars have a breath or breathing in and out motion. This is an effect of the inflowing and outflowing aether. Every spherical torus in the Universe will exhibit this characteristic. The Earth breaths in the exact same fashion.
Well, I've gone and done it again... bla bla blabbin my blabber mouth off. Back to the point of this reply ... dualities are only perceived at certain levels of awareness and aetheric vibration. Moving to higher densities will start to blend them together making them appear as one thing and not two.
Sorry bout the blab folks.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: XoFFoX on 2002-08-28 22:21 ]</font>

I lied, I'm going to do a little more blathering.

I love that stuff XXoFFXX. Or was it XXoFFoXX? Whichever. I find this sort of thing fascinating. I'm all for metaphysics or mysticism or whatever you want to call it. I'm also all for empericism (except I'm not sure how to spell it). In fact, I hope the two can get married someday and run off and have a baby. Then we'll have a species full of hard nosed empiricists going off on vision quests to discover the true nature of the celestial spheres through experiment and fasting. I read a short story the other day wherein these aliens paid a visit to Earth and their spaceships were fueled by the "power of prayer". Very funny, good stuff.

But I also think that we're not anywhere even remotely close to a place where a metaphysics revival would contribute anything new. I'm very probably wrong. But it seems to me that we live in dangerous times. Very scary things on very large scales have happened and are happening to the human race. Some describe it as a lack of moral compass. Some blame science for this lack. Others blame mysticism (renamed ignorance, superstition, etc.) Others blame Santa Claus. I don't know what's to blame, probably very complicated cultural and economic pressures etc. etc. Or maybe these scary times are simply business as usual for civilization, only now we have bigger guns.
I think it's great if people find a path through this mess, no matter how they do it--if the path is Yin and Yang or the Good Shepard or Mother Earth or whatever.

At any rate, the reason I responded to your duality talk in the first place is that I believe the only way for science to retain a moral compass is to stick to its guns (no pun intended). It has to keep to the empirical road and not waver or it is lost and will have nothing more to contribute. So when someone says anti-gravity, science has to shout "Where's your evidence!"

Maybe someday if we see the journey through there will be a union of essentialism and existensialism and the old arguement between Plato and Aristotle will finally be put to rest and we'll be on to something new.

OK I'm done. None of my posts have been about Planet X so I'll call it quits on duality or move to the Against the Mainstream area.

__________________
She gave up trying to understand herself, and joined the vast armies of the benighted, who follow neither the heart nor the brain, and march to their destiny by catch-words.
--E.M. Forester

Hi. Thanks for your greetings. And you're right THIS IS AN ADDICTIVE BOARD. I'm already hooked. Luckily I'm going out of town this weekend or it might be trouble.

__________________
She gave up trying to understand herself, and joined the vast armies of the benighted, who follow neither the heart nor the brain, and march to their destiny by catch-words.
--E.M. Forester

Hi nebularian! Thanks for the greetings.

__________________
She gave up trying to understand herself, and joined the vast armies of the benighted, who follow neither the heart nor the brain, and march to their destiny by catch-words.
--E.M. Forester

In response to last post from Plane arium
Todays current model of physics will never be able to emperically explain anti-gravity because it is based on hard particle theory and not fluid aetherics. 100 years ago, plus or minus 30 to 40 years or so, scientists were on the right road until someone blindsided them with very harsh criticism and one experiment that somehow arbitrarily and single handedly decided the fate of aether based physics. It was to be buried yet again for another 100 years and all of this was done in the name of greed and status. Hence, we use fossil fuels instead of zero point energy and this was very carefully guided in this direction. I have all the proof I need to convince me that anti gravity is well within our technological grasp. I have a working model of an electro gravitic device based on the Biefeld-Brown effect. Mainstream science has tried to pooh pooh it with very weak arguements. I can understand how it works based on aetheric physics and I can see it work right in front of my eyes. It is repeatable and scalable up or down and it works in a vacuum so the ion wind theory doesn't hold much wind.(pun intended) I'm also aware of a method to design electronic circuits so that they will run almost indefinitely on one dipole source (battery) without depleting the battery. As long as the chemical reaction continues in the battery they can last for a very very long time and with rechargable types they can last even longer. Longer than 2 or 3 human lifetimes. This will be my next adventure in science to build a working circuit that does what I just said. And the real sad part is...is that this knowledge has been around for many years yet we are made to pay through the nose for our electricity. Remember that this was carefully planned to work this way for and by a very small group of elites. It's so plain to see it's actually sad.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: XoFFoX on 2002-08-29 00:35 ]</font>

XoFFoX

Are you serious? Or are you blowing smoke up my untrained chimney? I know lots about observational astronomy (well, the Northern hemisphere that is), but I'm just starting with math and physics.

Either way, a discussion of this should probably move off the Planet X area so I won't write anymore here unless it's about Planet X. But are you going to post about this topic elswhere? Or have you already? I haven't had time to wade through this immensity.

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She gave up trying to understand herself, and joined the vast armies of the benighted, who follow neither the heart nor the brain, and march to their destiny by catch-words.
--E.M. Forester

No I'm not kidding (about the AG thingy) and gravity I believe is an acceptable topic for this area as it is a huge factor in the reality or non-reality of a rogue planet capture and or planet X orbital behaviors. I suppose we could move it to the Against the Mainstream area... it would fit in quite nicely there too. I visited those sites that have the solar system gravity modeling softwarez and using the default settings that are already plugged in and ran the thing and saw something that was extremely curious behavior of Venus as it was dragged off by the passing star. It had a very wonky orbit that showed signs of acceleration and deceleration as it weaved in a serpentine fashion behind the star.
I think I remember BA saying that this sort of changing of speed of an object cannot happen as Nancy has stated that PX's approach is an exponetial acceleration as it gets closer to the Sun and then some deceleration as it approaches the outer gas giants and the repulsive (anti grav) forces kick in. What I saw Venus do was more bizarre than what this PX scenario is predicting. What do you say BA. Why can't we have variations of speed in an orbiting body, especially an orbit that we probably have never seen before. Comets have similar orbits as what PX is supposed to have but they do not have the mass to affect big changes like a large body approx. 23 times more dense than Earth as per Zetas. It's too bad you can't direct the approach of the star in this program to make it more like PX as per Zetas. BY the way does anyone know if that program is relatively accurate or not or is it just an amusement thing???


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Anti Gravity and Zero Point Rule.
11:11
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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: XoFFoX on 2002-08-29 02:59 ]</font>

XoFFoX, you believe the zeta talk?

Which program are you talking about?

XoFFoX quoted
beskepigal quotes
Well, lets look at what I claimed and what I didn't claim. I did NOT claim at anytime that I had a full data set or that I have all the answers, however this scenario has all but been thrown in the trash bucket according to what you guys think you know using your data set. One reason why I got so riled at BA was my reaction to reading his take on PX. I read it all and found that he wasn't exactly being all that friendly to this group. At least that's what I felt. I felt he was shutting the whole thing out without getting more facts. I have made it quite clear a number of times that I am no expert, I'm a musician, remember ??? but I am ready willing and able to get right into it and find out the truth. Remember I also said that I have a good sense of what is truth and what is bunk. If I told you how or why I have this sense, you would bedunk me because there is no scientific proof for intuition or vision or whatever you want to call it.
As for the education thingy, I have nothing but respect for getting an education (that's what I'm doing here right now) or the priviledge of having an education but you can go to school for a thousand years and still not learn the truth if the school your going to is misleading you. You have to make sure that what the school is teaching IS the truth. What our institutions have taught in the past and currently is at best incomplete or outright out to lunch on many levels. And there is no sign that this will change with any semblance of noticable motion in a positive direction anytime soon.
I would like to quote you again here.

The point I was trying to make here is that we would be light years ahead in technology than we are today if some boneheaded people (scientists included) about 100 years ago didn't suppress some good science that would have accelerated our understanding of the Universe by leaps and bounds. Sadly, In my OPINION we are seriously behind where we should be right now. I get a good gut feeling of truth when I consider that this setback for us was orchestrated very very carefully so that only certain people would benefit from this financially and only a very few are in the loop. There is are too many things that indicate this type of deception. Remember, I'm saying this as a sensitive, if you will, to vibrations of truth. I can smell a lie like a shark can smell blood in water. Also don't forget that I am only leaning a little towards the reality side of PX returning. I have also had some very revealing dreams about this thing as well. They seem to deal mostly with being involved in very cataclysmic Earth changes. (earthquakes, high winds, sensation of rapid motion of the Earth surface in distinct direction, solar event etc.) This usually doesn't come into play when I speak on PX topics as I would be seriously ridiculed for including such material in a discussion of this nature. THey may be part of what is pulling me in the direction of the "yes it's there crowd". Yes, I do want some hard evidence before I start heading for safer ground ie. away from the coast which is where I am. The proof will ultimately be in the pudding. If it comes, it comes but it won't surprise me and I'll be posting "I told ya so's" all over the place up until the water swallows me up. According to the Zetas, we will have 3 month's when the thing gets to the edge of the solar system to be able to see it and then start the stampede into the hills. Oh yeah, don't forget the lynching of the government for not warning us sooner.

By the way the Internet was put together by people who were in the loop. (Military) You know that you are luckiest scientist in the world when you get in on the loop and work with the real set of facts concerning certain areas of science and technology. I agree in a sense with you that we as humans are quite good at inventing and creating and there is a lot of science that we have done and done well. I am most concerned about those areas of forbidden science that can fix our current global crisis and it is a crisis. ie. Zero point energy and anti gravitic propulsion for transportation. This technology exists and will come out soon, I hope. It may be that guys like me who are hobbiest type researchers will revive the forgotten and/or purposely hidden technology. I was skeptical about the electrogravitic flying contraption so I did what I hope any good scientist would do. I built one and made it fly. Then I wasn't so skeptigal. So far on this BBS I have kinda been made fun of in a polite manner for claiming that I can demonstrate some effect that seems to defy conventional ideas about gravity. I've heard the ion wind wind and it doesn't fly with me because you can build these things so you don't get very much ion wind if any and they still perform fine. This design has been duplicated thousands fold around the planet primarily because of the Internet. One design I have found can lift 20 grams plus it's own weight with about 65 watts of power using about 45 to 55 kV. It is my understanding that the lifting force grows exponetially as you increase the voltage up to a point where the electrons are moving very very close to the speed of light(for this dimension), and as they can never achieve the speed of light (for this dimension)in this dimension there is an infinte exponential gain as you move closer and closer to the speed of light for this dimension. Then at a point one would experience some threshold where once you have aquired enough energy and are tuned to the next highest vibration you can breach that energy barrier that separates each density and sub-densities. Sub-densities are infinite between each density and sub-sub-densities are infinite between sub-densities and so on and so forth ad infinitum. There are energy/vibrational thresholds for the transitions between sub-densities as well. Dang !!! I've done it again !!! bla bla blabberina Well you get my point anyway ...Right ??? Bla Bla Bla ...

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Anti Gravity and Zero Point Rule.
11:11
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Art Bell Alert !!!

It is now 2am PST and the show is over.
What a great show. I liked !!!
Ooops PDT

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: XoFFoX on 2002-08-29 05:11 ]</font>

What the heck timezone are we in for post times ??? EDT ???
You guys are all sleeping right now and I'm just startin to get a beer buzz on !!!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: XoFFoX on 2002-08-29 05:08 ]</font>

Hey !!! .......................when do I get to be a BAD something else ???
10:10

When are u guys waking up ???

Have I told you guys that I can make a car run on tap water yet ???

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: XoFFoX on 2002-08-29 05:15 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: XoFFoX on 2002-08-29 05:19 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: XoFFoX on 2002-08-29 05:20 ]</font>

I saw one out on the lake for a short time yesterday

Whoa
whoa
whoa
someones up !!! someones up !!! someones up !!!
333

heh, going to bed now

I got one more issue with one of your quotes.
Skeptigal quote
I'm perfectly OK with almost everything you said here but the one I will point out that is not quite there... our ideas of clear evidence and rational logic may not apply to something that goes beyond this perception. What seems rational here may not be what rational is in another dimension and that's what we may be dealing with here.

BA may know about a finding that indicates that the plasma buffer at the front end of our heliosphere is growing in thickness very rapidly. Now, correct me if I'm wrong but the heliosphere is an area that encompasses the whole solar system and extends out beyond the edge of the solar system out beyond the oort cloud even ??? I'm not sure about that but what I'm getting at is a growing mass of plasma is accumulating at the leading edge of the solar system as we travel through the galaxy. Is this true ??? Do you know anything about this BA ??? I will leave it at that for now as I have more to say and ask about this area of space at this time.(leading edge of the heliosphere ??? What's going on there ???)
111

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Anti Gravity and Zero Point Rule.
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Goodnight O Grape of Wrath !!!
3's be with you !!!

For one thing, 23 times more dense than the earth is not very dense! This wouldn't put it anywhere near Jupiter, and Jupiter is only a gas giant, not close to the density of a brown dwarf.

On your comment about Venus, that is a temporary orbit. This example you cited is one that wouldn't last more than a few cycles. That isn't what scientists usually consider an orbit as it isn't lasting.

Zzzzzzzzz...snrgGG...huh?

He did say "dense" but I think you are talking about "mass," right?

The Earth is a lot more dense than Jupiter. Earth's average density is about twice that of your ordinary rock, and Jupiter is just a bit more dense than water--Saturn would even float (if you could fi...nevermind).

Ssnnnn...zzz

Well, I was writing up a post on mass versus density, but Grapes beat me to it. So I'll settle for posting this page of planetary measurements from The Nine Planets.

http://seds.lpl.arizona.edu/nineplan...ets/data1.html

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...And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped. --Sir Bedevere