i think they are too eng man. i will never be as bo lieow as them...ahhh oh well different people have different talents guess mines not being a big chow chee bye

[img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img]

Nibirese.

Perhaps you missed the part about the trial runs of first and second generation products.

Three buses in Chicago working for two years. 50% operation rate. (Not bad for first generation fuel cells.) They have also gone forward with several other pilots. Including a car project in California.

The folks a Ballard are realistic enough that they intend to get the manufacturing process down to where they can produce the engine for roughly the same amount of money as conventional combustion engines. They are also working on a hydrogen bromide salt fuel which is combined with water to produce hydrogen and oxygen needed for operation. (Something your model lacks is adequate power to perform electrolosys efficient enough to put enough power back into the battery and run the engine. At some point, your vehicle needs to be recharged. People won't like that.)

The Oil companies still have a market in petroleum products. It just removes gasoline from the mix. Not the products used in lubrication of moving parts, petroleum jelly, or it's military counterpart jellied petroleum. The hydrogen market could be done by any number of labs. There are several major suppliers of hydrogen gas. Any chemical company could produce the hydrogen bromide salt in quantity. Do you honestly think that Dow chemical and Eastman chemical companies don't have the cash to fend off the oil companies? Don't forget DuPont and Pharm-Eco either.

In addition, Gillig Corporation, which produce heavy duty transit buses, has ordered three fuel engines for buses to enter service in 2004 for the Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority.

__________________
Valiant Dancer

Look for a strip mall near a Navy Base.

Me, I go with cheap. The difference between a good haircut and a bad one is...about two weeks.

Silas

I'm very interested in alternative fuel and propulsion, though I don't know enough about it. However, it has no place in a PlanetX thread. Since it seems like some people have interesting things to say about the subject, why not start a new thread? In fact, I'll start it. Why bury an important topic like this in the wrong thread?

FYI, I started the thread I mentioned above at:
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/vi...2190&forum=1&0

Please indicate with a quote where I claimed this system is over unity.
All I merely suggested was that exhaust water can be reused in the system.
It's very easy to see how verbal communication can get twisted and misinterpreted but when the written or typed word gets twisted that's very amazing to me.
Again, I say please indicate precisely when and where I said this is an over unity system. I know over unity is a four letter word in the mainstream of science but unfortunately they will eventually find out that over unity devices are REAL. Westinghouse has a patent for an over unity device that was a part of the minuteman missle guidance system.

PS. I'm ba-ack !!!
111

My motivations are NOT driven by greed and need for the material things. My opinion of Randi is that he is an idiot and I don't want his money. I doubt that he would part with it anyway. If you had made a very important find or invention would you have time to waste with bozo's like him ... to me it would be a waste of time because he probably wouldn't buy it if he saw it anyway because it's his job to debunk ... he's a debunker.

Also don't forget people have mysteriously disappeared or even died that were involved in such technologies. It is not my desire to become one of those stats so I will be very careful who I tell if I get something that really works.
777

The operatiuve part of the word "debunk" is "bunk". In other words, a debunker doesn't go around trying to prove everything is wrong; they go around trying to separate what's real from what's bunk.

I am a debunker. My job is to figure out what's real and what isn't. That's what this website and specifically this forum are about.

I like your angle dude (if I've gotten it right) I especially like your tag or whatever it's called.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Awesome ... who said that ???

Absense of evidence isn't evidence of absense? probably anybody anytime they want someone to believe something but have absolutely no proof at all.

Its a convienient saying to say the least.

The problem with saying "I think god exsists" is that it really is the same thing as saying "I believe god exsists", the same as saying the opposite. You cannot think one way or the other about something without believing one way or the other. Believing something isn't a problem. The problem is blindly believing something in the face of evidence to the contrary.

[quote]
On 2002-09-02 10:26, GENIUS'02 wrote:
[quote]
On 2002-08-30 21:26, overrated wrote:


to separate the H and O in water,
There may be a way to do it without the enormous energy costs and I am investigating at the moment. I am having trouble finding the components needed but I'll keep everyone posted.
If there is no way around the amount of energy needed then there is a second approach that will supply all the energy required plus even more from the active vaacum using a device that will induce electricity from scalar EM waves that exist throughout the Universe in amounts so abundant that you might as well say it's infinite.
This device can supply the required electricity and voila ... you need but modify your engine a tad and build a fuel delivery system and you have a car that only needs to be filled with water in it's fuel tank.
This approach, I believe, would be easiest for the transition to all electric vehicles as it allows us time to convert to all electric, otherwise all our present vehicles are scrap metal.
I am in agreement with the fact that liquid hydrogen and hydrogen fuel cells is the way to go for the all electric car but not with using yet another fossil fuel to generate the hydrogen. Your just shooting yourself in the foot with this line of thinking.
12:12

Well, I'm hoping that this is accurate and that we are moving steadily in the right direction.
It is my understanding that the Ballard system is just an electric motor powered by electricity generated in a hydrogen fuel cell. After a while the hydrogen must be replenished. If I'm wrong please enlighten. I would like nothing more than to see the Oil companies go the way of the dinosaur. (pun intended) They've had their stab at the cash cow and I think they've had there fill but I agree that we still need petroleum products for lubrication and plastics etc,unfortunately. There are however alternatives to this as well.(synthetics)

As for the other chemical mfg'ers you mention I don't really like that idea either as they have been equally responsible for biosphere degradation as the Oil firms. Unless they really clean up their act they will still pollute and then they will be the new fuel cartel sucking our pockets dry.
About that hydrogen bromide reaction ... I used to be pretty good at chem but tell me again what the by-products are again ... H an O and what of the bromide and is this toxic. I know they use a bromide in swimming pools in place of chlorine.
Well, lost my thought train for the time being
bye bye.

Weeeell, I'll have to agree with you on this one if you break it down that way. However, you have to admit that there are some debunkers that make an existence of it, they are over zealous maybe or being paid very good coin to do so. There was and still is a very dangerous game being played concerning economics or better yet greed and politics but it's more about money. Having some guy on the payroll for a pitance of what a large oil company makes in a year to specifically make sure that no new or old technologies threaten their profits. And please don't tell me that this has not been done before. Maybe not to a tee in it's execution but none the less, it's been done. I can look out my window tonight and see the large money behind this scam in the form of highly irregular high altitude air traffic spewing aerosol something or other into the air. All I need is my high school Chem and Physics to know that these are not CON-TRAILS. THis is all being done without the publics consent or knowledge, save a few who have some common sense. AND of course, there are debunkers for this too. I don't have any solid evidence or proof of what they are doing but they are still there regardless of what I beleive or can prove.


I do have some news on the PX front. A fellow by the name of Lloyd Pye was on Art Bell a few nights ago discussing the Starchild skull. (I know uz are all astronomers here and not anthropologists) so I doubt if you are familiar with this story. Lloyd is a proponent of Zach Sitchin's theories (don't forget folks I lean towards the pro PX side and that's not to say I buy all of it hook line and sinker but I don't dismiss it totally either) ... so Art threw the question of PX 2003 at him and this is what he said. He believes that PX is real but not due back here 2003, he very much doubts this will happen. He did admit that he thinks it's out there though and he knows an astronomer of standard repute (like uze guyz) that thinks he may have found it. He is currently tracking this item of interest and is not ready to come out with it so to speak. Of course Lloyd could not give his name on worldwide radio without his permission and suggested to watch for some posts on his own website for any updates or official releases.
I'm sure if Mr. Anonymous Astronomer verifies what he has found he will have his own website and press releases. I will try to find out more about this person from Lloyd. I would suggest that some of you make an attempt as well, you may know of this anonymous astronomer in your circles.

Another note about Z. Sitchin ... as far as I am aware, Sitchin has never publicly stated a when time for Nibiru's return and I'm not even sure if he gives a date in his books. I have not read his books but did read some very in depth reviews that were quite illuminating. Richard C. Hoagland and crew at enterprisemission.com have gone on record as quoting Zach that PX's return will not come till 2160. Keeping in mind again that Sitchin has not publicly disclosed.(as far as I know) Sitchin has refuted the 2003 claim by Leder, Hazelwood et al. on his own website. SO I have no idea how Hoaglands crew came up with 2160. From what some have gathered from Sitchins writings is that the last time it was here was during the time of Exodus, when the Jews were lead out of Egypt by Moses. I believe Sitchin puts this approx. 1600 BC. plus minus a few decades or so. If this is true then adding the 3600 years or so that the planet takes to orbit puts the return right around 2003. 2003AD-3600=1597BC. Now the thing we must determine is when was Exodus...was it around 1600BC. A lot of things that were described in Exodus are similar or indentical to what some say happens when this giant passes by. Who knows, maybe this planet is smaller than they say but passes by so closely that it looks huge and causes isolated cataclysmic disruptions.
This might explain why the whole planet would not be affected.
Another interesting note is this, I have a friend who has a doctorate in paleoecology. I have told him of Nibiru and what it does and when they say it may return. We got talking about his work and how, from his coring sample records and others records of either moderate or extreme climatic changes in the geological record, occur every 3600 years or so. Think on that one for a while. Like I said, the trick is nailing down when the last passage was to within plus or minus 25 years or so and then we will know the WHEN time.

PS> I had sat down to respond to this msg and I think a blabbed for at least an hour or more and had so much to say. Unfortunately for me and probably fortunately for you, I forgot to fill my username/password boxes and lost all of it when I submitted.
oh well say le'vee ... it's time for my beer fridge to open.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: XoFFoX on 2002-09-14 04:50 ]</font>

I'm not sure what you are saying here ???
Now I can really identify with that last quote.
"The problem is blindly believing something in the face of evidence to the contrary."

However, there is no evidence either way and it's that leap of faith that most are not afraid of but terrified of. And it doesn't have to be your faith in God or Science or whatever, it may be just the faith in yourself to be able to know the truth and feel safe and comfortable with it, because truth will make you feel so ... it's like being at peace and there are no worries because you know and you don't need a math formula to tell you so. That is spirit. The new quantum physics are now proving that the Universe or our reality is non-local. Meaning that what is known by one can be known by all and vise-versa. This is the mechanism if you will, that can dissolve dualities and paradoxes which are only illusions in this space/time contiunum (dimension). In the new theory, time and distance have no effect on two particles that are linked so to speak. What one particle knows or does on one side of the Universe is simultaneously known or replicated by the other particle on the other side of the Universe.(Countless billions or trillions of light years apart and yet no time lag) These are the types of things that are shattering old paradigms that may have been wrought out of malice or greed or just plain ignorance and selfishness.(That last one should encompass all else including greed and malice.)
If one could just imagine for a moment that there is no money, there is no status and there are no inequalities ... then we would have an environment where there is no ridicule, there is no oppression or suppression, science could roll ahead unfettered by controlling, squabbling factions, spirituallity is married to science ... for if there was no spirit there would be no life and no science ... the same can be said of science, without it we probably would have died out as a species from exposure long time ago.

Damn !!! I'm babbling again !!!

PS. This isn't me talking ... I'm channeling this stuff from my neighborhood. It must be that other newbie from Surrey ... eh ???
333


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: XoFFoX on 2002-09-14 04:56 ]</font>

Warning: this is a very long post in response to Skeptigal's reply to my post's. Anyone not interested should scroll past. It gets a little sticky near the middle.

How do you know it's not magical ??? Can U provide any evidence for this ???
tou'che parry parry lunge lunge !!!

No... that person has no intuition, which I might add is impossible because everyone has it whether they use it, want it, or need it regardless. AND there are people in scientific circles who are doing serious research on the subject of paranormal phenomenon and are making some startling discoveries and making progress. You just haven't been following it or aware of it. Some of this research actually ties in with the newly discovered non-local quantum Universe we live in.

That's OK dude, and you are right. I don't need to convince you ... I am quite happy knowing that I have a good intuition and it has saved my life on a few occasions and it tells me things about people that I can prove from there subsequent actions that I was right about them. Example: I was asked by a friend to loan him some money. He wanted 10 grand. I said forget it but considered half that amount 5g's. When the time came to make the transaction my gut feeling said don't do it, your gonna lose that money. But being me and always eager to help, I gave him the money. Guess what ... I'm out 5g's. He made a hap hazard attempt to pay it back and I got about 2200 bucks back plus some broken down music equipment. Bottom line was and is I knew that I would lose that money and I still gave it to him anyway. I have other stories too but that's enough for now.

Well first off, no one has ever suggested the idea of a rogue planet until now and the debate is on as you are aware. Since we have not seen anything like this ever why should astronomers expect that they would know how such an object would present itself ??? There is another thing to consider here. If it were true and say NASA knew about it and of course informed the government ... do you really think that they would inform the public ??? AND do you think that they would allow smaller independent parties to disclose if they knew ??? What would the consequences be ??? Massive panic ??? In my opinion, I think the general public would respond maturely and try to figure out what to do. I admit some may panic but it would be our jobs to keep them calm and devise a course of action. There would of course be absolutely NO garantees for survival for anyone. It would be no different if an asteroid were to come and hit us and we already know that there are a lot more dangerous asteroids out there than there are rogue planets !!! And I still don't believe that the government would tell us even if it was only an asteroid. I'm sure you'll agree with me that we are much more in danger from asteroids as we are from PX. The good thing about PX is that it is not going to hit us. AND if PX has come by in the past we can automatically assume that it will NOT destroy all life on the planet as we are still here to testify to that fact. BUT one must take precautions and/or make preparations to deal with it, otherwise we will all perish.
You are right about one thing though, I don't think either side in this debate has enough facts in their data set just to get past PX's existence. However, the two teams that think they have found a large object out past the Oort cloud is one point for the astronomers and it also may be a point for the pro PXers as well.
Something IS out there. And this new fellow astronomer that has been tracking something has got my interest big time, especially since the rumor of this man came from an anthropoligist.

Don't place too much faith (if you believe in faith, that is) on todays technology or what is perceived knowledge. Five thousand years ago the Chinese knew much of what you guys are just rediscovering today without Hubble Schmubble scopes and fancy space probing equipment. The Sumerians, in what I perceive to be historical records, new about Neptune, Uranus, and Pluto AND Nibiru 4000 to 6000 years ago without any high tech scientific means to detect them. (At least not like ours.) Yet we found them ourselves only a mere hundred or so years ago. Hmmm??? and this does not raise any questions in your mind ??? ... Pity.
I have seen many theories of what was once thought true come crumbling down only to be replaced with something that they never would have guessed so, with much perturbation.
(Is that a real word ???)
You know what ... I don't think that it has been given enough serious attention at all.
Can you honestly say that you have spent time looking for it on your own telescope time ???
I have read recently about not enough being done to set up a detection system for NEO's. This is the same thing. No one is taking any of it seriously enough. Because if it comes down to a crunch we will lose against a few kilometers of space rock let alone a giant close to the size of Jupiter or at least the mass of Jupiter maybe. Who knows what the hell it is or how big it is. Bottom line is that it may be there whether we like it or not.

If you are familiar with his work, it's main focus is with our origins as a species and really doesn't focus on Nibiru that much. It is the planet of our creators and comes around every 3600 years.

You were all educated under the same system, why wouldn't you all be similar ???
Sitchin's evidence comes from ancient astronomical record. How will you feel when some guy 4000 years from now throws out your lifes work and calls it ancient myth ??? The recording medium of history has changed over the years but it still remains history, not myth or legend or even spoken word (witness) and summarily and/or arbitrarily dismissed as such.

I did read what he wrote and I found it to be a little belittling to the pro PX side. Maybe someone of an uneducated background might not realize that they are being ridiculed or just plain made fun of but NOT me. Hence, my initial aggressive first posting which I am not going to apologize for again. Again, I must stress that I won't tolerate the mainstreams arrogance and oft times egocentric stance with regard to the so called stupid uneducated public. Just out of curiosity, what level of education do you think I have attained ???

Granted that it (PX) probably won't be here any time too soon because in my mind I think we should be seeing it by now as well. But I can't rule out some unforseeable factors that would allow it to be undetected. That's why they call it GOD's wrath ... you ain't gonna see it comin. What if it's coming at us from the otherside of the Sun ... ala that asteroid that astronomers didn't see until it already went by us and only missed us by ... what was it ??? 75,000 km. Another big Hmmm???

I would say that education allows/empowers one to acquire the facts for themselves. But I have to emphasize that not all acquired facts are exactly that ... facts. There are some out there that do not wish the facts to be known and so put forth non-facts to distract and draw attention away. If you start working from the wrong set of facts you will be lost for a while or maybe forever.

I surely do hope you mean that "Fortunately good science is hard to stop" and not "Fortunately, the supression of good science is hard to stop"

I do watch some TV. I don't have cable if that counts for anything so I only get 5 channels ... I'm deprived !!!

Well, you must be a magician if you can get your internet connection for free, I am paying 40 bucks a month for mine. Please tell us the trick. And I seriously doubt that you have time to waste waiting in the line up at the library to surf. I also don't think that if I walked into the bank and took a few hundred thousand out to finance my research that I would get away with it. Gimme a break !!! Everything is free for the taking ???
Like I said you must be a magician or invisible.
You certainly got that right !!! Money, money, money ... ala Beatles ala ABBA.
Gee ... I wonder why corporations don't have humanity at heart... BECAUSE THEY DON"T HAVE F___ING HEARTS !!! Can I say that on the Internet ???
My apologies:
This will be the first and only time I use that four letter word on this BB. If you are an adult on this website you have heard it before and will hear it again I'm sure. If you are a minor, you may have heard it already and if not you will hear it sooner or later unfortunately.
To the host of this BB, if you deem it necessary to ban me for this usage I can understand. But grant me this, I am a very emotional person. I can get quite excited about things that are important to me and this planet, especially at this point in time. I also enjoy debating with you guys. It keeps me on my toes and I think I can assimilate you into the great central sun.

By the way, who were those Asian Rastafarians that got banned anyways ??? ... they didn't even swear and they got turfed ??? This is a tough crowd. I figure that it's buried in so much Babel (as in the tower) that no one will even notice it.

OK, no arguements here.
Well, that's the magic phrase isn't it ??? "hard to buy" When I look at what's going on around me today I can't see how it happened any other way ??? Skeptical or not. Greed turns people into Demons for lack of a better term. It posseses then obsesses and finally consumes them. It's so blatantly obvious in most cases... look at what W. Bush is pushing for today ... fight terrorism, Iraq in particular, so that daddy's contracts with defence contractors pays big bucks to the Bush family. They even said in the news earlier this week that the US forces are depleted of supplies and ammo and need to resupply before going to war with Iraq. If that isn't a conflict of interest I don't know what is. Look at the big scandals in the stockmarket ... naa I guess that's just good ol American business practices.

I do sorta get the feeling that ol George actually does have a conscience and this will not please some around him. There may be an attempt I feel, someone will try to kill him but I also feel that this will not succeed, because he does care somewhat deep inside and that might protect him. Remember we are all connected for good or bad. Either that or he's one hell of an actor. This was just a last minute gut feeling on this line of thinking... nevermind.

That's not unusual about the sound thingy, it happens to me too. These dreams are much more than that.

Just the fact that you can accept one example of dream premonition is an admission that if one can be then others can be. I never said all dreams are premonitory. (not sure if that's a real word either ???) There is no such thing as coincidence ... everything happens for a very specific reason whether you want to buy that or not.

Always with the impossible thing with you guys ... I told you that in this place NOTHING is impossible. Didn't you guys grow up with Disney ??? You are American aren't you ???

I don't want to be picky but there is no such contraction as "What'd" This is besides the point but aren't you guys supposed to be educated ??? If so, why can't half of you spell properly ??? At least proof read through it as your going along to at least make it look good.
What probably happened in most cases of this is that first of all; most of these inventors are independants and hobbyist types. So it would have been easy to either intimidate or ridicule them out of business and if that didn't work then more serious threats to the family perhaps and finally death if you wouldn't comply.
Secondly, they worked off of other established scientists work that may or may not have been working on the same things. ie. Biefeld-Brown effect started as an experiment with vacuum tubes and not electro-gravitic princples. It was just a noticed (thank God) side effect of the research by an ambitious and innovative young man by the name of T.T. Brown. Who then worked on this on his own until meeting Biefeld and together patented this invention and even demonstrated it to the military who payed absolutely no attention to it at all. Can't figure that one out ??? Apparently a demonstration where witnesses saw a 3 foot diameter dome shaped device fly around tethered to a pole at a good speed when high voltage was applied. 17 meters per second. (I think, a fairly good clip anyways) Luckily this fellow was left alone but his work is very legit as I have found out for myself. There is even another project that was done by the deceased Floyd Sweet with the Vacuum Triode Amplifier which was supposed to generate electricity and also levitate similar to the Searl device or SEG. Searl effect generator. Most of these guys are all dead now. Some from old age others NOT. Most guys they were able to threaten with harm to their families and that was enough so there probably weren't that many homicides due to non compliance.
Who's side are you on anyway ???
The mere fact that you brought up the gas and oil companies buying out patents is proof enough for me that there are more shenanigans going on than just this. Christ man open your eyes !!! I re-iterate again that hydrogen burning engines have been around since the WWII and we are burning gasoline ??? Whats up with that partner !!!
Well if I thought like this I wouldn't believe you if you told me that air pressure is what makes airplanes fly. I told you guys I was skeptical too but I built one, made it levitate and that's enough for me. Seeing is believing for me too ... personally I would like to see an ET with my eyes but I don't think that it's going to come and meet me in my backyard but I still accept the reality of ET's even though I have not and maybe never will actually see one. I've never seen a neutrino but I know they exist only because some scientist said they did. I have not seen any proof. This would indicate that I don't hold the entire science community in contempt.

Whoa ... you got me wrong here pardner !!! I never meant that Nibiru is in another dimension. THings in other dimensions do affect us but not on that kind of scale. But then who knows eh ??? I'm only a mugician... No ???
Personally, I think it's going to take some kind of global catastrophe to eliminate the current system of material wealth aquisition that keeps most of this planets inhabitants in poverty. The rich will not survive such an event because they simply do not have the survival skills whereas a street person can live on next to nothing and survive inclement weather or at least find suitable shelter and they simply survive. I know for a fact that I am not survivalist savy ... I can however live on very little food as I am now doing due to my unemployment situation now. But I am by no means ready to face life in a harsh environment. Nothing in the near future as far as I can see will stop this incessant greed and warring over stuff that doesn't belong to any ONE of us !!! ie. land, natural resources ... THE PLANET !!!

Wow ... That was a response and a half. I thought I'd never get through it all. I hope I have made some good counter points that will be taken just as seriously as Mr. Skeptigals points. I'm sorry for the length of the reply but I felt compelled to respond to this fellows remarks on my postings. I do like to play devils advocate on occasion in an attempt to draw out more information from the other side. Hence sometimes I can appear to be less than amicable. Another hope I have is that my rhetoric has influenced some of you to expand your horizons beyond the accepted and beyond what is percieved as impossible and implausible for in this Universe/Existence ........... anything is possible.

PS> Tou'che heir Skeptigal ... parry thrust ... lunge lunge parry ... Tou'che mon ami.

PS2> Oh yea ... I almost forgot about the Sasquatch hunt. Well ... we lost ol Dynamite Pete. He was a good man. (with dynamite that is) He was lost on the first leg of the journey into Scratch-it Valley. We saw what we thought was a UFO and Ol Pete ... well he paniced and ran off inta the darkness ... we heard a blood curdlin scream and thought it was Bigfoot but it was just ol Dynamite Pete lightin a stick O dynomite when he thought it was a candle. Well you can guess the rest. It turned out that the UFO's wuz just a mosquiter with a wingspan of about 6 feet. (Ah seen bigger) Actually ther wuz a hole squad of em ... heh!!! We never did see a Sasquatch-asaurass nor did we hear one (cept for Ol Pete) and we never smelled one either (cept for Ol Pete). So ended our trek into the Scratch-it valley we barely made it out alive with a sad endin anyway ... We all died of West Nile from mosquito bites, cep for me.I spose someone had to tell the tale. We did see some chemtrail sprayin which blew ma mind !!! What the hell were they doin way the hell out there anyway ???
666



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: XoFFoX on 2002-09-14 08:10 ]</font>

A question, XoFFoX, since we're firmly off the astronomy beat already:

How do you differentiate between a "contrail" and a "chemtrail"? [img]/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img]

I'm not even sure where to start.

First off

Its simple, what I am saying is that it is the favorite defense of charlatins. "Just because I can't provide any evidence of my claims doesn't mean my claims are not true"
Sounds pretty fishy to me, usually that line is followed up by "Its all explained in my books and video tapes! Only $29.95"

As for blindly believing things in the face of evidence to the contrary, sure there may not be proof one way or the other to gods exsistence, god is a metaphysical theory which rests in the realm of theology and philosophy quite outside what science is interested in, but there is plenty of evidence which flies in the face of the preachings of various religions and sects. Usually the more radically fundamentalist a group is, the more thier beliefs can be easily discredited. My favorite group for such things are the Mormons, but then, thats because I'm not too far away from Nauvoo.

(I think what you're looking for at the end there is "Imagine theres no Heaven, Its easy if you try...)

Ok, I could almost believe that there is a long duration object of significant size that might be glimpsed with the naked eye, one that is populated by aliens who created humans though, thats downright unbelievable,
as humans have exsisted for much longer than 3600 years.

read his post again, skeptical is saying that information is free on the internet, not that access to the internet is free. Unless of course you are willing to use a public terminal, which are readily available.
No need for magical powers or invisibility. I use a free operating system, free software, and I get a lot of news from free sources.
Then again TANSTAAFL, everything comes with a price.

Oh there are plenty of things that are impossible. And the only thing that disney taught me is that theres great money to be made preying on children and nostalgia while making sure that no one can ever use mickey mouse or anything else from disney without paying them money.

Simple, hydrogen costs more to produce in both energy and money than it will provide, at least right now. Do you really think that if Ford GM and the other car companies came up with a way to make more money that they'd throw it away?

So a subduction quake destroying the western coasline of the US, Yellowstone erupting and destroying most of north america, or mega-tsunami washing away a good part of the coast of the atlantic isn't good enough to destroy the world? Much bigger than that you don't have to worry about society surviving, you have to worry about humanity surviving.

Actually a quick look on ADS showed that the paper has been published in Icarus in the october 1999 issue. Unfortunately I cannot get to the paper at the moment, but here is the abstract that is acessable for anyome:
http://esoads.eso.org/cgi-bin/nph-bi...d4107928a17456
okay, just my input for the moment, I don't like it when things get "quoted" without source like "I read somewhere" or "I heard from someone".
Have fun
Martin

__________________

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善數, 不用籌策 (shàn shù, bù yòng chóu cè)
He who is good at counting, uses no counting tools
“A good scientist has freed himself of concepts and keeps his mind open to what is”
道德經, 二十七 (dào dé jīng, 27)

Yo dude !!!
When I see a normal contrail it usually follows the aircraft quite closely behind it. If you held your hand at arms length it should be no wider than 4 fingers at most and disappears rapidly after that. If you know about the chemistry and/or physics of contrails you would know this; You need a fairly moderate to high relative humidity to form contrails period. Without water vapor in the air there is nothing to crystalize into ice. That being said, normal passenger jets fly at an altitude no higher than 42,000 ft. or so. That's commercial air traffic ceiling, anything above this will be military traffic. The planes that are spraying chemicals out the back are flying closer to 50,000 or maybe even higher. (And they are completely unmarked aircraft, no military marking or civilian, not even the call lettering that is on all aircraft) At this altitude the RH (relative humidity) is very low (even at 40,000 it's pretty low). As I said earlier you need a reasonable RH to create contrails. What I see is a wingspan wide trail of crap that never seems to disappear. It slowly disperses into a whitish milky sludge that turns a beatiful blue sky into yuk. Now I see they are getting better at it and more sneaky about it. The trails they are doing now don't take as long to disperse and they look like normal cirrus clouds after a while. THey also aren't making long continious trails they are breaking them up as the next few lines will show. A couple days ago I saw one start to lay down a trail of CRAP and it was sunset so one could really see it well. When sunlight passes thru it it tends to refract and cause a prism effect.(more so than just water in clouds) Anyway, after it got halfway across the sky it completely disappeared. Vanished ... voosh. No chemtrail AND no normal contrail either and you should not expect one at that altitude either. BECAUSE there is not enough water vapor to make them. If you are interested in a math formula used to calculate the maximum duration of a contrail at specific RH then I can direct you to the webpage. An example given stated that at 20% RH at 45,000 ft. plus (which is extremely rare if not totally impossible for that altitude) a normal contrail would last not more than 2 minutes and that's a very very huge over estimation.
777

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: XoFFoX on 2002-09-16 09:41 ]</font>

Well at least I got you thinkin hard there Petey.


[quote]
On 2002-09-14 01:37, XoFFoX wrote:
I am not selling anything !!! Nor do I plan to.
Well I agree with you for the most part here. The more brilliant and innovative physicists are very quickly closing the gap between science and GOD. Notice I said GOD and NOT religion. Religion was invented by men to control the masses. THis is why the more radical they are the more dangerous they are and they can exert a very tight grip on their victims so as to get in the way of real progress in science. They don't want average Joe Blow to know the truth.
I always liked that man. Very smart fellow.
You obviously haven't read what I wrote or what Sitchin wrote. I will try to brief you briefly.
You misinterpreted what was written by me. Ya , it comes around every 3600 years but did I say that we've only been here that long. If you even read a short review of his work you would know that we as humans have been here all along for millions of years. They ( the Annunaki) came here approx. 450,000 years ago to mine gold and other ores I suppose. They did this for quite some time before they got quite tired of working in the mines. That's when two of the very brightest of them decided to genetically modify the proto-humans that were already here. And voila ... homo-sapiens was born. That's why there is a missing link between us and Erectus and/or Neanderthal. So ... we toiled and toiled for them for many thousands of years until we were given or found forbidden knowledge and the ability to reproduce. Which apparently as I understand we were not able to do before. That's kinda the story of Eden. One of the Gods, Enlil, had human slaves tending his garden retreat/home in the Tigris valley.(his favorite place I might add) Apparently he became quite annoyed with us and our incessant hunger for sex and we were very disruptive and noisy about it so he kicked everyone out. If it weren't for his brother, Enki, who was one of our creators(genetic engineers) we would all be gone. There would be no homo-sapiens for Enlil decided that he was fed up with us and would let us perish in the ensuing global floods. Lucky for us Enki did not agree but was forbidden and sworn not to tell the humans of the coming danger. He did however find a loophole to get around his sworn oath. He took aside who we call Noah, from the 1st testament and told him to stand out of sight on the other side of a fence or hedge. There he spoke to the hedge and not directly to a human, Noah just over heard him say to build a big ship and how to do it so it would withstand the coming cataclysms. After the waters had receded and man found dry land again, the Gods apparently realized this and Enlil was furious. He wanted to know who told the humans. He realized after, when the humans were still here and helped to rebuild their cities and spaceports that he may have jumped the gun to get rid of us.(Nice guy eh ???)
I'll leave it at that for now. Anyhow, we've been here as homo-sapiens for a very very long time. A note of interest, it is common knowledge that we have reptillian DNA in our genetic make-up and it is said that the Annunaki are of reptillian decent. We could be like we are because they are so or we may have gotten our lizard genes from way way way way back. But modern science says that we recently aquired these genes.(within the last few hundred thousand years, approx. 200,000 I think)


Well that's Capitolism for ya ... love it or lump it. It's your choice. Sci-Fi and Fantasy are what gave me the imagination to realize that this reality is not at all what it seems.
ANd oil and gas costs less. Come on !!! Think about it. How many billions does it cost each year to explore, extract, process, and ship and whatever else all that planet killing petroleum. After all that a steam engine is more by far more efficient for christ sake. People don't realize how much energy and money it really costs to get all that crap out of the ground and in your tank. Water (hydrogen and oxygen content) has 40% more potential energy than gasoline and that's a quote from the DOE and it's a very conservative estimate. Some say that it's as high as 80% more energy than gas. The powers that be don't want this information to be known. There is a way to breakdown water without huge energy requirements. We just have to rediscover it. And as I said earlier, if there's no way around the energy requirements then we will use devices that extract free energy from the active vacuum. These will supply more energy than you could ever know what to do with and given that they can do this we only need to build more electric cars and electrogravitic propulsion drives for our transport needs. The solutions and technologies are at hand, we only have but to do it.
Your only half right here. Your only talking about North America here, what of the rest of the world. Are they just a shadow, unimportant. Crap, most of the world gets by on next to nothing and they are still with us. They seem to be getting along not too bad with or without western influences. Now they are breathing down western societies neck with violence and threats of such. This culture may not survive but humanity will endure as we always have when these types of things occur. Nothin new here. It's just the next time lets get it right for once.
777

_________________
Anti Gravity and Zero Point Rule.
11:11
777
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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: XoFFoX on 2002-09-16 09:45 ]</font>

This topic has wandered away from astronomy far enough. It's locked.

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Phil Plait
The Bad Astronomer
http://www.badastronomy.com
badastro@badastronomy.com