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Yes, I know that anyone who challenges GR is by definition a crackpot. I also know that a paper showing a flaw of GR is uninteresting even if valid, and that I need to fix the Kerr metric and predict gravitational waves too or else it's junk. (Just trying to forestall some typical comments.)
A Flaw of General Relativity, a Fix, and Cosmological Implications Abstract: A flaw of general relativity is exposed and is shown to source from a misapplication of the equivalence principle, the theory’s core postulate. A replacement for the Schwarzschild metric is simply derived. (The vast majority of experimental tests of general relativity have been tests of the Schwarzschild metric.) The new metric is shown to be confirmed by experiments of the four classical tests of general relativity. The predictions of the new metric are shown to diverge from those of the Schwarzschild metric as gravity strengthens. The cosmological implications explain some observations simpler than do alternative explanations. |
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ops: Objection withdrawn.Tonight I will pull out my trusty copy of Theory and Experiment by Clifford M. Will and see what the PPN (parametrized post-Newtonian) parameters of your metric are. If your metric has values of the PPN parameters beta and gamma that are close to the GR values of beta=1 and gamma=1 then your "new" metric is viable.
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Microsoft is over if you want it. The bar has been lowered for the promotion of ATM ideas; the bar for the acceptance of ATM ideas must remain high. I now officially condemn CM's skits as smartaleck, ignorant, sophomoric, inflammatory and and a poor reflection on the level of discussion in BAUT. -- Bob Angstrom |
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Isn't it sufficient that the relativistic rocket's speed is close enough to c, so that the travel time measured by the crew is less than their lifetimes? Quote:
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The speed of the rocket as measured by the crew is zero. How do you get one year travel time, and in what frame of reference is this time measured? In the frame of reference of the gantry, wouldn't they take ~1.4142 years to cover 1 ly at 0.7071c speed? Wouldn't it take ~0.293 years from the point of view of the crew? (Of course I could have made mistakes in my calculations.) How did you obtain those numbers?
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papageno "Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous?" - Hobbes (Calvin and Hobbes) "It's all about context!" - Vince Noir (The Mighty Boosh) "I've never heard of such a brutal and shocking injustice that I cared so little about!" - Zapp Brannigan (Futurama) "...because the logic of the lines traced from reality is as poor of aesthetic value as it is strict in consistency. " - Paolo Bozzi (Naive Physics - free translation) |
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I'm trying to understand what you believe the flaw to be. As far as I can make out, it seems to be the notion that an object free-falling in a sufficiently high gravitational field will reach a relative velocity (relative to where it started) greater than c. Is this correct?
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1. General principle of Relativity; 2. Principle of Equivalence, Now, "the laws of motion for a uniform gravitational field are the same as the laws of motion for a relativistic rocket" looks like a consequence of the first postulate. The link you gave talks about the consequence of the second postulate. Can you explain how the Equivalence Principle implies that "the laws of motion for a uniform gravitational field are the same as the laws of motion for a relativistic rocket"? Quote:
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Again, why does the crew need to exceed the speed of light? Quote:
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I should be more careful. Quote:
Shouldn't you get: [x^2 - (ct)^2](gantry's frame) = [x'^2 - (ct')^2](rocket's frame) ? left: (1 ly)^2 - (c * x/v)^2 = {1 - (1/0.7071)^2 } ly^2 = 1 ly^2, right: (0.7071 ly)^2 - (c * 1 y)^2 = 0.5 ly^2; I don't think you are comparing the correct intervals. If we assume that left equals right, we obtain t' = 1.225 y, the time interval to pass each signpost at one lightyear separation (in gantry's frame). I hope posters with more experience in Relativity can help.
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papageno "Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous?" - Hobbes (Calvin and Hobbes) "It's all about context!" - Vince Noir (The Mighty Boosh) "I've never heard of such a brutal and shocking injustice that I cared so little about!" - Zapp Brannigan (Futurama) "...because the logic of the lines traced from reality is as poor of aesthetic value as it is strict in consistency. " - Paolo Bozzi (Naive Physics - free translation) |
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Welcome to BadAstronomy Zanket!
I'm curious about the history of your idea; would you care to comment on The Pinwheel Paradox and black hole riddle, which are two threads in Physics Forum's Special & General Relativity section, started by a member with the name "Zanket"? |
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The gantry’s calculation of the length of the rocket’s space-time interval is: s^2 = (0)^2 - (ct)^2 = 0 – (1 * t)^2 = -t^2 = -0.5. Then t^2 = 0.5, and t = 0.7071. In the crew’s frame, in one year on their clock (T = 1), the gantry’s clock elapses 0.7071 years (t = 0.7071). That is correct. This example shows that the gantry’s clock runs slow in the rocket’s frame, and vice versa. It shows that the gantry's rods are length-contracted in the rocket's frame, and vice versa. This spacetime interval example is also compatible with the example in section 2. |
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The reason that no velocity >=c can be directly measured at or below an event horizon is because GR’s escape velocity equation returns a velocity >= c there. The equation shows that, below the horizon, even light must fall. Then everything must fall there, and fall in such a way as to prevent a directly-measured velocity >= c. But (in Schwarzschild geometry) if the escape velocity equation is validly one that returns always less than c, as the paper shows, then no event horizon exists, because an event horizon is by definition where the escape velocity = c. |
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The black hole riddle was not a good riddle. It sounds like a riddle but there’s really no riddle there, as shown in the thread. So nothing insightful there. |
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Or do you mean "a uniformly accelerating frame of reference is equivalent to a frame of reference with a uniform gravitational field"? Quote:
How is that a physically significant quantity? You are using measurements from two different frames. Quote:
I set x = 1 ly, which was what you used for the length contraction: Quote:
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1. Rocket is leaving gantry; 2. Rocket passes the 1 ly signpost (distance measured in the gantry's frame). Gantry's frame: distance = 1 ly, rocket's velocity = 0.7071c, travel time = 1.4142 y. Rocket's frame: distance = 0.7071 ly, gantry's velocity = -0.7071c, travel time = 1.225 y (determined by space-time interval invariance). Quote:
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papageno "Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous?" - Hobbes (Calvin and Hobbes) "It's all about context!" - Vince Noir (The Mighty Boosh) "I've never heard of such a brutal and shocking injustice that I cared so little about!" - Zapp Brannigan (Futurama) "...because the logic of the lines traced from reality is as poor of aesthetic value as it is strict in consistency. " - Paolo Bozzi (Naive Physics - free translation) |
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- A local frame fixed to the surface of a mass is equivalent to a noninertial frame uniformly accelerating in flat spacetime (e.g. a relativistic rocket). - A free-falling local frame is equivalent to an inertial frame in flat spacetime. The two key implications can probably be restated in a thousand different yet valid ways, which is why you see so many different statements of the implications of the equivalence principle on the web and in books. The first implication is restated as the first sentence in section 1 of the paper (what you quoted above). The second implication is incorporated into the paper’s definition for an inertial frame. Please don’t take this personally, but I don’t want to debate the validity of the sentence quoted above. Since there are so many sources that support it (like the link I gave you), if you still disagree, I’d rather agree to disagree. Quote:
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The statement "the laws of motion for a uniform gravitational field are the same as the laws of motion for a relativistic rocket" is a consequence of the Principle of Relativity. The statement "the motion of a mass in a uniform gravitational field is the same as in a uniformly accelerated frame" is a consequence of the Principle of Equivalence. So, which is it? I already asked you this: Quote:
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Gantry's frame: distance = 1 ly, rocket's velocity = 0.7071c, travel time = 1.4142 y; Rocket's frame: distance = 0.7071 ly, gantry's velocity = -0.7071c, travel time = 1 y. Testing the space-time interval invariance: rhs: (1 ly)^2 - (c * 1.4142 y)^2 = - 1 ly^2; lhs: (0.7071 ly)^2 - (c * 1 y)^2 = -0.5 ly^2. So, where is the problem?
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papageno "Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous?" - Hobbes (Calvin and Hobbes) "It's all about context!" - Vince Noir (The Mighty Boosh) "I've never heard of such a brutal and shocking injustice that I cared so little about!" - Zapp Brannigan (Futurama) "...because the logic of the lines traced from reality is as poor of aesthetic value as it is strict in consistency. " - Paolo Bozzi (Naive Physics - free translation) |
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Then the statement “"the laws of motion for a uniform gravitational field are the same as the laws of motion for a relativistic rocket” is implied by both the equivalence principle and its superset, the general principle of relativity. Then the first sentence in the paper is fine. And you are right, the equivalence principle is redundant in the way you said. Quote:
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Please see my next post, which affects our debate here regarding the “effective velocity” in the paper. |
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I’ve gotten a lot of flak for the section in the paper on “effective velocity”. Even though “effective velocity” is not an actual velocity, and no problem has been found with the related math, that section raises red flags. To forestall the issues from coming up again, I removed that section from the paper and reworked another section. The math is equivalent, save one less derivation. The conclusions are the same. Hopefully I’ve made the paper more convincing; time will tell. Here is the paper.
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Then, if we use the Wikipedia quote, saying that the Equivalence Principle implies (i.e. has as a consequence) that "the laws of motion for a uniform gravitational field are the same as the laws of motion for a relativistic rocket", would be still wrong, because the Equivalence Principle is the consequence and is implied by the statement. Quote:
The Equivalence Principle is a consequence of the statement. And it is the statement which is redundant, because it is a special case of the Principle of Relativity. If you want a statement which is a consequence of the Equivalence Principle, than you should use "motion of a mass". Quote:
Newton's second law gives us the law of motion of a mass, but the motion of the mass depends on the force applied to it. The motion without any force applied is different from the motion when a constant force is applied, and different if a non-constant force is applied. In all cases the laws of motion is the same, but the motion differs. This is the reason why "the laws of motion for a uniform gravitational field are the same as the laws of motion for a relativistic rocket" is not the same as "the motion of a mass in a uniform gravitational field is the same as in a uniformly accelerated frame". Quote:
The statement you put in your paper is not implied by many sources. Quote:
This is important especially within General Relativity. Quote:
(ds)^2 = (dx)^2 - (c*dT)^2 ? It is invariant for inertial frames of reference (as your example). Quote:
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papageno "Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous?" - Hobbes (Calvin and Hobbes) "It's all about context!" - Vince Noir (The Mighty Boosh) "I've never heard of such a brutal and shocking injustice that I cared so little about!" - Zapp Brannigan (Futurama) "...because the logic of the lines traced from reality is as poor of aesthetic value as it is strict in consistency. " - Paolo Bozzi (Naive Physics - free translation) |
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effective velocity = veff = 2 million light years / 5 minutes in years I can’t think of any physical meaning it has. Doesn’t matter though, because it’s equivalent to: veff = v * γ And I can rearrange the relativistic rocket equations to get v * γ by itself on one side, so if v * γ is not physically meaningful then neither is it in SR, hence not in GR either, and then whether it’s physically meaningful is irrelevant. Algebra stills allows me to substitute veff for v * γ in the rearrangement. Quote:
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c = 1 x = 0 ly (the gantry is stationary) t = 0.7071 yr (in the rocket's frame the gantry's clock runs at 70.71% of the normal rate) x' = 0.7071 ly t' = 1 yr Then: left: 0^2 – 0.7071^2 = -0.5 right: 0.7071^2 – 1^2 = -0.5 Then left = right. |
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The statement with the laws of motion is a consequence of the Principle of Relativity. The Equivalence Principle implies the satement with the motion of a mass. Quote:
You forgot the postulate "that inertial motion is geodesic motion.": you quoted it from Wikipedia. Quote:
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In the first you have a force, in the second you have not, hence F=ma is different. In the first case the acceleration is blamed on a force; in the second the acceleration is blamed on the frame. Quote:
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Algebraic gymnastic does not necessarily give physically meaningful results. Quote:
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Why should we take your algebraic gymnastic seriously? Quote:
Now, for t = 0.7071 yr, the distance rocket-gantry in the gantry's frame is Dx = (0.7071c)*t = 0.5 ly; in the rocket's frame it is Dx' = gamma*Dx = 0.7071*0.5 ly = 0.3536 ly which is not the distance you got: x' = 0.7071 ly. So, you are using positions and times for different events: no wonder there problems wih the invariance of space-time interavls. So far the only flaws you have shown is in your understanding of basic concepts in Relativity.
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papageno "Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous?" - Hobbes (Calvin and Hobbes) "It's all about context!" - Vince Noir (The Mighty Boosh) "I've never heard of such a brutal and shocking injustice that I cared so little about!" - Zapp Brannigan (Futurama) "...because the logic of the lines traced from reality is as poor of aesthetic value as it is strict in consistency. " - Paolo Bozzi (Naive Physics - free translation) |
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Showing that you are wrong is not being rude.
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papageno "Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous?" - Hobbes (Calvin and Hobbes) "It's all about context!" - Vince Noir (The Mighty Boosh) "I've never heard of such a brutal and shocking injustice that I cared so little about!" - Zapp Brannigan (Futurama) "...because the logic of the lines traced from reality is as poor of aesthetic value as it is strict in consistency. " - Paolo Bozzi (Naive Physics - free translation) |
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LinkBack to this Thread: http://www.bautforum.com/against-mainstream/20008-flaw-general-relativity-fix-etc.html
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| Posted By | For | Type | Date |
| Unifying Gravity and EM | Post #575 | Refback | 16-July-2007 12:32 PM |