What is its frequency?

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"Whether the Solar Wind is an electric current" has become much more complicated than I anticipated. What I have learnt is as follows:

1. Although moving charges (electrons or protons) define an electric current, it is also a vector quantity. So the simply answer is that the NET electric current in a neutral ideal plasma is ZERO because the electrons and protons cancel.

2. However, plasma is not simple, and accept in text books, it is not ideal. We don't get each proton pairing with a specific electron (as we do in a non-ionized gas). As a result, currents may arise.

3. Consequently it is important to specify a frame of reference. So astronomers can talk about the Solar Wind's electron current (in its own frame of reference), or ion current, but which taken together, cancel.

4. There are lots of forces on Solar System ions and protons; they don't just move outward from the Sun in pairs. Anywhere these forces cause the ions and protons to move differently to one another, so that there is net movement of electrons or protons, will cause a current. And this does happen, and are called drifts. For example, the effect of gravity on ions depends on their mass, and as Alfvén suggests, may produce chemical separation, and produce a current.

5. I think I understand what czeslaw means by a plasma having an "alternating current", but I don't think the analogy works. In a circuit with an alternating current, the ions move back and forth, and over the duration of one cycle, have a net motion of zero, but nevertheless, there is a measurable current. I don't think it works with plasmas because there is no obvious frame of reference, which is why plasmas are generally treated statistically, and we have Debye lengths, and quasi-neutrality. But a plasma does have a Scalar Potential and Coulomb Potential, but I haven't figured out what they mean yet.

6. In more detail, George K Parks writes in Physics fo Space Plasmas:
".. Electric and magnetic fields depend on the coordinate frame in which the fields are measured. The fields measured in stationary and moving frames are related by the Lorentz transformation theory of electromagnetic fields. The motional electric field is called convective electric field if the plasma motion does not change the magnetic energy. In this case, the electric field in the plasma frame vanishes and the electric field is perpendicular to the magnetic field. Motional electric fields are ubiquitous in Nature. An electric field will also be induced by the motion of a rotating plasma across a magnetic field. A rotational electric field arises because an electric field will exist in a nearby volume of plasma unless it moves around with the planet or star. In ideal plasmas, the electric field in the rotating frame vanishes and the plasma corotates perfectly with the rotating body. Note that a rotating frame is not an inertial frame of reference and this problem cannot be understood using the results of the special theory of relativity. Instead, one must invoke Einstein's theory of general relativity to study electrodynamics in noninertial frames".

7. David P. Stern who writes the excellent Exploration of the Earth's Magnetosphere web site, replied to me as follows:

Your question opens the door to some interesting physics. The proper definition would actually be
"Electric current is the NET rate of charge flow past a given point in an electric circuit".

That is, positive charges moving in one direction contribute the same as negative charges moving in the opposite direction. A flow of equal densities of protons and electrons flowing in the same direction then does not carry any current--the positive contribution and the negative one cancel each other.

It is otherwise in the ring current carried by particles trapped in the Earth's magnetic field--see items (3) and (4) in
http://www.phy6.org/Education/wtrap1.html

By the above definition, the main flow of the solar wind will not carry any electric current. However, subtle effects associated with density variations and bending of magnetic field lines do create currents even in the solar wind. Such currents must be taken into account in space plasmas.

Consider the following situation. Take a sheet of paper and with a pencil draw on it some closed contour--say, a "potato shape." Imagine now that a magnetic field exists, everywhere parallel and pointed OUT of the sheet. Imagine also that those lines inside the "potato" contain plasma of constant density, while space outside it is a vacuum.

By item (1) of the above web files, all trapped ions (viewed from above) circle their field lines CLOCKWISE, while electrons circle counterclockwise. (They may also slide up and down while circling, but we assume new ones then take their place, so that the density does not change).

Draw two touching orbits inside the "potato", for either two electrons or two positive ions. Where they touch, their motions are opposite, so their combined current is ZERO. Mathematically one can show this is a special example of a general case--the currents due to the gyration, anywhere in the interior, always cancel--and they do so for each species separately.

But it isn't true on the boundary! Any gyrating ions whose motion touches the boundary creates there an ion flow which is clockwise, and each electron creates an electron flow which is counterclockwise. Each of the species then contributes a clockwise current around the boundary.

That is a real effect, and is responsible, for instance, for the fact that at the inner edge of the ring current (item (4) above) the current density is actually counterclockwise (viewed from north), opposed to the general ring current carried by the transport of particles.

This weird behavior of the plasma also affects the solar wind. It causes a current sheet around the Sun's equator--one whose direction depends on the polarity of the Sun's global field, which reverses every solar cycle, i.e. every 11 years or so.

Sorry! But than, no one has promised us that nature was simple!

Conclusion

So I guess that to ask "whether the Solar Wind is a current" is poor question, like asking whether the sea is a current; it has currents, but it is not a current.

Regards,
Ian Tresman

There is surely no doubt that learning is taking place.

However, a more pertinent question is, is it particularly effective learning?

That plasmas are tricky beasts and that simple word pictures describing them are full of traps (to paraphrase Ian, with some distortion) is pretty unsurprising; that this thread has little to do with an ATM (and much to do with educating some posters, who seem to have a bent for some of the things they've read on some woowoo sites) may be nice, but it's not what threads in ATM are *for* (in this sense, it resembles more a Questions and Answers thread in Universe Today).

In terms of the history of the participation of the main posters in this thread, that it's more like a simple FAQ than a gleeful and fervent attack on an ATM idea isn't surprising either - after all, none of the proponents of EU/PU/PC ideas demonstrated even quite elementary understanding of the basic physics behind the ideas they sought to propose (at least, not here in BA). #-o

[fixed typo]

I would quibble this point, having a "net motion of zero' implies that there is no net current, but there is energy transfer.

well... supossively our planet looses gas molecules all the time.. mostly hydrogen.. which fritters off from the top of the atmosphere.

and if hydrogen can do it.. why not a highly charged electrons which weights 1836 x less.. and with energizes available in the xray level..
-MT

That is one BIG post Ian. And a good one if I may say so.
The "quarrel" I have with czeslaw, well no, it is not a quarrel per se, is that I try to keep it simple for starters, and czeslaw want to dive into the deep part of the swimmingpool, before being able to manage in the undeep part (IMHO).
Let us first consider a neutral plasma flowing past the Earth, the solar wind, no direct currents there, so no the SW is no current. But then you give a wonderful analogy, asking if the ocean is a current.

Plasma oscillations, in specific the plasma frequency. This is the "natural" osciallation frequency for a plasma, where ions are a neutralizing, immobile background, and the electrons "do all the work". The frequency follows directly from the continuity and momentum equations in the cold plasma approach, as a second order differential equation:

omega_p = sqrt( n e^2 / epsilon_0 m_e)

dropping the cold plasma approach one gets a dispersion relation, i.e. a description of the frequency dependend on the wavelength

omega^2 = omega_p^2 + 1.5 k^2 v_e^2

where v_e is the electron thermal velocity and k is the wave vector.

I have not been able to find any references that one can take the plasma oscillations as an AC current, and personally I think that you cannot look at it that way, as there is no work done. The other way around, I just saw that in tokamaks they use the plasma frequency to energize the plasma.

Anywho! let's continue, and try to edumacate eachother. But let us start with simple things and slowly continue to more complicated cases. To shock everyone now: THERE ARE CURRENTS IN THE SOLAR WIND. But I hope you understand this statement in view of the analogy that Ian made.

Okay, back to the drawing board.

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善數, 不用籌策 (shàn shù, bù yòng chóu cè)
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We will come to the right conclusion soon.
You agree that there are charge micro oscillations in a neutral plasma.

All planets are surrounded by the hot, magnetized, supersonic collisionless solar wind plasma capable of conducting electrical current and carrying a large amount of kinetic and electrical energy.

What the electrical energy can do a work ?
For example:
There is a solenoid current in a spaceship moving far in the solar wind. An alternating electric current could be induced in this solenoid. The frequencies and strength of this current is difficult to estimate.

The frequency of the electron in a plasma depends on their density and for example if there are 10^5 electrons in 1 cm^3 their frequency in plasma will be 2,8 MHz..

A frequency of an induced current depends of many evets
BzN = Strong northward Bz for extended period
BzS = Strong southward Bz for extended period
EyC = Change in Ey=VxBz
HSS = Very high speed stream for extended period
IMC = Interplanetary magnetic cloud
IR = Interaction Region
IS = Interplanetary shock
LSS = Very low speed stream for extended period
MISC = Miscelaneous, which may include a very broad range of features
PC = Pressure change
SBC = Interplanetary sector boundary crossings (usually in a set)

The electrons passing the solenoid oscillate in plasma and plasma move relatively to solenoid. It causes tremendous frequency. There is question now if the electrons in the solenoid could move according to this frequency.

Yes, there are plasma oscillations

Which electric energy do you mean?

Well, there are only like 10 particles per cm^3 in the solar wind, but that would only decrease your frequency by a factor 100.
Why is there a solenoid current in the spaceship? Do the astronauts set that up, or do you want to induce that current or ...?
I do not think one can induce a current using the plasma frequency.

Care to explain how you think it is these influences work? Maybe first look into the induction process itself in e.g. "Classical Electrodynamics" by Jackson.
Fron the list you put up there, it looks like you just copied what processes are responsible for magnetotail dynamics, and we don't want to go there quite yet.

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善數, 不用籌策 (shàn shù, bù yòng chóu cè)
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“A good scientist has freed himself of concepts and keeps his mind open to what is”
道德經, 二十七 (dào dé jīng, 27)

There is very low charge density and probably not many electrons in this solenoid will move in an alternating current. The very close to solenoid particle may induce an alternating current. Any way, there is such a possibility. It is not possible to measure its frequency because of the events as above, it will be more or less chaotic. Any way this current, although chaotic may carry an energy and do some work, I think.

First you have to explain how the events that you listed change the frequency, or at least how you think they change the frequency.
I still do not think that the micro-osciallations, that are these plasma oscillations, will induce a current in a solenoid. Maybe there is someone here that knows more about that, or maybe I have an idea, have to look it up.
But then arguing that the current is chaotic, then you negate what you proposed, and no current will be present, either chaotic outside will induce nothing inside or chaotic inside will add up to nothing
By the way, does the oscillating current induce the current solenoid, or does the associated magnetic field produce the induced current???
I think I found the solution, as the plasma waves are electrostatic modes, there is no magnetic field associated, so there is no induction. From Kivelson and Russell, Introduction to space physics, Chapter 12, page 374, and the analysis before, discussing the plasma frequency and the Langmuir waves that logically follow from them after dropping the cold plasma limit.

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善數, 不用籌策 (shàn shù, bù yòng chóu cè)
He who is good at counting, uses no counting tools
“A good scientist has freed himself of concepts and keeps his mind open to what is”
道德經, 二十七 (dào dé jīng, 27)

Here are the solar wind data updated every 5 minutes – There are plasma density, velocity and associated magnetic field http://www.sel.noaa.gov/SWN/sw_dials.html

A plasma of the solar wind and a solenoid may create a system of a double layers.
The global evolution of a DL-containing plasma system (close to solenoid) is the result of the mutual influence of two or more DLs coupled by the current flowing through them. The temporal variation of the current are correlated with the space-temporal variations of the parameters of the above plasma.
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:r...pdf/P2_035.pdf

Ummmmmm. . .

Could you please explain why you think this is applicable to the solar wind other than just having your search words in it?

This link is general about plasma. Its URL is too long and I will cut it.
The reason is that solar wind is a plasma too and there are double layers in the solar wind. The electrons are accelerated in DLs. Such a movements may create additionally currents. I think.

Where are they? How do you tell where they are? What are their characteristics?Additional to what?
What would the characteristics of these currents be?

The presumed double layers observed in the solar wind are quite weak, ~1mv in potential. And that's assuming this interpretation is correct.

Weak double layers in the solar wind

Thank you Karl for this super link. This question about a currents in the solar wind may be not solved yet.

The velocity distribution functions (VDFs) of electrons as measured in the solar wind show pronounced deviations from a Maxwellian. They seem to be composed of a thermal core and energetic tails, called halo. These VDFs can be fitted very well by kappa distributions. The formation of the energetic tails in the corona or in the solar wind is investigated. http://www.arcetri.astro.it/~solwind...t/node156.html

The dissipation of large-scale magnetohydrodynamic waves and turbulence in the collisionless solar wind is still not understood well. Dispersive plasma waves and associated wave-particle interactions are a key to this problem. http://www.arcetri.astro.it/~solwind...t/node140.html

Okay, czeslaw, you are sidestepping again here. I write you how and what and you post a link with solar wind data. We all know that the solar wind has density, velocity and magnetic field. It does not take away what I posted earlier, about no induction in your solenoid.

If you can come up with a REASONABLE explanation hoe the solar wind and the solenoid create a DL, I would love to hear it. What is your solenoid made of? It was in your spacecraft so I think it is just a coil in the freight room. But I guess that they can hang it outside into the solar wind. But that is not going to get you any double layers.

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善數, 不用籌策 (shàn shù, bù yòng chóu cè)
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“A good scientist has freed himself of concepts and keeps his mind open to what is”
道德經, 二十七 (dào dé jīng, 27)

so nice, isn't it, czeslaw, to just copy and paste something that does not have anything to do with the question you asked before or the answer you got.

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善數, 不用籌策 (shàn shù, bù yòng chóu cè)
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“A good scientist has freed himself of concepts and keeps his mind open to what is”
道德經, 二十七 (dào dé jīng, 27)

There are two different questions.
The first is a direct current in the solar wind and it is probably not exactly solved till now (according to links above).

The second is an alternating current caused by a plasma of the solar wind.
My idea is that charge oscillations in the solar wind will induce the charge oscillations in a conductor moving relatively to the solar wind. This charge oscillations in a conductor create an alternating electric current.
I do not know now how to prove it but I will do it, I think.

The links have NOTHING to do with currents in the solar wind. It just discussed particle distribution funtions, that are not Maxwellian, but kappa distributions, or even better they are bi-kappa distributions (Leubner and Voros, 2004).

I have already said above that the oscillations are electrostatic, so they cannot induce a current in your solenoid. This is also the reason that you need the Electric Wave Instrument onboard spacecraft, which makes a spectrogram of the electric field measurements, to get the upper-hybrid frequency, which is for all purposes in space physics equal to the electron plasma frequency. There is no such signal in the magnetic field spectrogram.
But I would love to see your theory here with equations, etc.

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善數, 不用籌策 (shàn shù, bù yòng chóu cè)
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“A good scientist has freed himself of concepts and keeps his mind open to what is”
道德經, 二十七 (dào dé jīng, 27)

The solution of the problem will be in a structure of the solar wind. The plasma of the solar wind is not homogeneous because of the changes in a solar emission and dusty space.

Regardless of scale, the motion of charged particles produces a self-magnetic field that can act on other collections of particles or plasmas, internally or externally. Plasmas in relative motion are coupled via currents that they drive through each other. Currents are therefore expected in a universe of inhomogeneous astrophysical plasmas of all sizes. http://public.lanl.gov/alp/plasma/elec_currents.html

There are permanently the double layers created on the different scales with the electric currents between them. We may say, the solar wind as a whole neutral plasma do not carry a current from point A to point B, but there are multitude local and tentative electric currents in all directions in the space between the points A and B.

Why do you keep repeating all this when you have been shown it is wrong?

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What is wrong?
There are charge oscillations in a plasma.
There are locally and tentative double layers in the solar wind.
There are locally currents in this double layers.
All that is right.

yes there are charge oscillations
yes, there seems to be evidence that there are DLs in the solar wind
as these are weak DLs (do you know what weak DLs are?) the current is most likely negligible.

It is not stating the obvious, where you go wrong, it is by putting one and one together where you obtain three.

As the Dutch say: Je hoort de klok wel luiden, maar je weet niet waar de klepel hangt.

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善數, 不用籌策 (shàn shù, bù yòng chóu cè)
He who is good at counting, uses no counting tools
“A good scientist has freed himself of concepts and keeps his mind open to what is”
道德經, 二十七 (dào dé jīng, 27)

Mit Deine Hilfe, ich werde gleich wissen welche Glocke da ist.

I didn't say there is a strong electric current. I want just prove - there are many tentative, local electric currents in the whole electrically neutral solar wind.

oops, that was a no no from me, writing something in Dutch without translating it. I guess czeslaw go the picture.
(translation: you hear the bell ring, but you don't know what is making the sound)

Czeslaw, there are a bezillion currents in the solar wind, remember the ocean analogy. now you have to figure out, what do you want to do with these currents. you have basically taken over Ian's thread here.
The OP was about, is the solar wind as a whole an outflowing current, and the answer was no.
Yes, there are currents in the solar wind, because there are magnetic structures in the solar wind, like CMEs.
Maybe Czeslaw should first tell us WHAT he wants to do with WHICH currents.

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善數, 不用籌策 (shàn shù, bù yòng chóu cè)
He who is good at counting, uses no counting tools
“A good scientist has freed himself of concepts and keeps his mind open to what is”
道德經, 二十七 (dào dé jīng, 27)

I am satisfied that we have came to the right conclusion, at least.

What the currents in the solar wind can do, it might be a new thread.
They are investigated by astronomers still , if they heat the plasma and how it helps to keep the plasma together.

Any way, this discussion was hard but succesfully.

WOW, care to share with us what the right answer is?
At least with Ian's question, that the SW is not an outward flowing current.
There are still a lot of questions that you need to answer, from previous messages, I guess a new thread would be a good idea.

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善數, 不用籌策 (shàn shù, bù yòng chóu cè)
He who is good at counting, uses no counting tools
“A good scientist has freed himself of concepts and keeps his mind open to what is”
道德經, 二十七 (dào dé jīng, 27)

i dont see the point of the arguement, since if the solar wind has a frequency, it will be to high to be useful, otherwise it will be slow, based on the variations of thr suns magnetic field which changes every 11 years.

now... thats a low frequency... like.. .000000000000001 waves per sec... or something ridiculous like that.

-MT