Hey! I'm a new comer to the group, but i have been keeping up on your posts about white holes, and, taking this a step further, pose this question seeking for opinions from other viewers - Do you believe that there exist such things called "Anti-singularities"? We all know that everything in a black hole is sucked in past its even horizon, and (in theory) is infinitely condensed into a single point in spacetime, called a "singularity". Just as there is a fine (yet definite) line between a singularity and a black hole, there would, in essence, be a find (yet definite) line between an Anti-singularity and white holes. So...what do you think?

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"I want to know the thoughts of God. The rest are just details..." -Albert Einstein

I would think the opposite of a singularity would be a supernova. :unsure:

Before I could comment I think I'd need a better understanding of exactly what you mean by "anti-singularity". Since a singularity is a point of infinte density, I'm picturing an anti-singularity as a point of zero density........in other words, empty space.

A supernova is a normal phenomenon during the lifetime of a massive star and is just a step on the way to the formation of a black hole/singularity.

I would say a singularity is the spontaneous appearance of large amounts of energy from an infinitely small source. Just as a black hole is large amounts of mass disappearing into nothing, an anti-singularity starts from nothing and produces something. That's why I don't think a supernova qualifies since it is produced by an existing star.

The problem I now have is gravity - a singularity still retains its original mass and gravitational effects. So what is the start point of an anti-singularity? Do you have a point source of gravity? Or would that appear from nowhere too? The idea of a singularity/anti-singularity would work better if a black hole completely disappeared, leaving nothing behind, not even gravity.

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Spike
:)

Hi Perhaps our universe is a kind of anti black hole. expanding for ever as opposesd to contracting... Just a thought

Fergal

see...that's what i thought. I guess...my thoughts expanded to the fact that..if an black hole sucks in everything (i.e. gravity, light...every thing), and condensed it into a singularity, then an anti-singularity would be connected w/ a white hole...which would produce/spit-out ...matter.., and...possibly, like in the Big Bang, start at an infinitly small point, yet spit out the matter, and possibly create something relatively close to the expanding universe we know now. We have no clue where it's expanding from (intuitively...wouldn't it have to be expanding from SOME point?)

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"I want to know the thoughts of God. The rest are just details..." -Albert Einstein

It doesn't *have* to be expanding from somewhere. I believe one theory is that the constant random fluctuations in the quantum field could occasionally create something that lasted long enough to spontaneously expand to form the universe. This would be creating a new universe alongside others.
It is an object in the multiverse i.e. the area of no time and no space that contains all these seed universes. There is no necessity for it to come from another object in another universe.

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Spike
:)

Disagree, Sp1ke! Quantum fluctuations are observed in the vacuum, but what about when there IS no "vacuum"?

And we observe mere particles & anti-particles popping in & out of this vacuum. None of these "particles" suddenly EXPLODE into universes.

I think Pung could be onto something, maybe our "Universe" is the sewerage drainpipe of another "Universe" that has been flushed down the S-bend of a massive black hole... ie the EXCRETIA recombined into what we all see & experience...a "miraculous" fluke of order out of chaos...

Who knows...time for another drink I think...

Can't argue with you Faulkner as I don't really understand the details myself. I was recently reading stuff from Stephen Hawkings about branes and multiple universes and his theory involved the spontaneous appearance of quantum brane bubbles that could expand into universes.

I'll see if I can dig up a more coherent explanation of how it might happen.

Anyway, if our universe is just the soil pipe of another universe, that would explain the smell. :P

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Spike
:)

I may be talking complete sewerage... but if a singularity has infinite density and gravity, maybe an anti-singularity has the opposite, like maybe an infinite negative gravity. I don't have the knowledge to expand, it's just my mind roaming.

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<span style='color:purple'>My voices don't like you!</span>

so...you're saying that it'd be like...the weak force? (the force opposing gravity for everything on earth)...so...the weak force would be greater than gravity, pushign everything off any surface, instead of being pulled to it?

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&quot;I want to know the thoughts of God. The rest are just details...&quot; -Albert Einstein

Is that the opposite to gravity, I don't know, what are the theories on antigravity?

What you're saying does seem to fit, that force would cause stuff to spew forth, but it still needs something to spew forth from! I don't have the in depth physics knowledge to expand any further. I was hoping someone in here might be able to get what I'm on about and either tell me I'm wrong, or explain if there's something in the suggestion.

Big physics brains... where are you?! Can you help me Pung or shall we go a hunting for forum members who can? :blink:

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<span style='color:purple'>My voices don't like you!</span>

Anti-gravity is a tricky concept because gravity is different to the other fundamental forces.

As I understand it, electromagnetism, the weak force etc. all have positive and negative aspects. So they can attract or repel. Gravity, though, is not the same because it results from warping of spacetime (according to General Relativity).

A planet moves in a circular orbit about the sun because the sun alters the shape of spacetime. So the planet is still moving in a straight line but in a curved space.

Stephen Hawkings has proposed a theory, based on the multiple history theory of Richard Feynmann, where each universe is a four-dimensional membrane. If there are several of these membranes close to each other, in the fifth dimension, gravity actually has an effect on adjacent membranes whereas all the other fundamental forces are constrained to one membrane.

This explains two things 1) Why gravity is so weak compared with the other forces - because is "leaks" across the membranes so its force is spread out, and 2) Where the missing mass in the universe is - extra mass is available in adjacent membranes but not visible in any way to us.

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Spike
:)

i think the Big Bang it is an anti-singulariti.....

A singularity is just a mathematical concept. It is only a point where equations break and infinities arise. It does not necessarily have a physical meaning. An 'anti-singularity' has no meaning, not even a mathematical one.

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"Shut up and calculate" R. Feynman

Could this idea be similar to zero point energy? I'm not talking about the absence of a Vacuum, but the absence of any quantum effects in that region of the vacuum because no massy or massless particles or waves are in transity.

Maybe we could think of the fabric of spacetime as an actual fabric, with the threads being field lines or wave/particle transits. Then, when it is pulled tight the threads separate revealing holes. I think this is the description of virtual particles --holes that act like particles and have associated phenomena like velocity, etc.

I was just trying to imagine the opposite of a blackhole, which is a mass in an infinitely small space -- mass in an infinitely large space. Of course, we only speculate that a singularity is an infinite density. Maybe the rules break down and become something else. Maybe it only seems to be infinite in our universe's reference frame and the singularity has its own subquantum reference frame that allows for classical physics inside.

Maybe our universe is the blackhole singularity in another universe. The addition of incoming mass both allows for a continuing and accelerating expension of the subquantum universe and accounts for the missing mass because its effect on the fabric of spacetime is felt from the other side before it has the opportunity to be scaled down and fall through a hole in the threads.

Of course, I'm just making this up as I go along.

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"What you think you thought you saw you did not see." Agent J, MiB - Manhatten Bureau

Singularities are still theoretical. We are fairly certain that black holes exist, but whether they are singularities is definitely undetermined.

I guess that any "normal" matter construct can have an anti-matter twin, so I'm not sure exactly what would prevent an anti-singularity from forming if singularities exist.

However, if an anti-singularity sucked in normal matter, it would necessarily lose mass and possibly lose its "anti-singularity" status once its density dropped below a certain level.

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"Barbarism is the natural state of mankind. Civilization is unnatural. It is a whim of circumstance. And barbarism must always ultimately triumph" -- Conan

I'm not really sure how this thread got resurrected from a 2004 beginning, but since it has how about this.

Since the word singularity is just a placeholder for the event that happens where the math breaks down, it should be okay to talk about the "Event", as long as this is understood.

So, since everything in the universe seems to have a positive and negative/Matter and anti-Matter relation, I would say that the 'Singularity' in the black hole is the negative/anti and that should mean there is a positive opposite for that...Naked Singularities.

So, for the stellar black holes...the star is the positive and the singularity in the resulting black hole is the Anti.

So, that leaves the Super Massive Black Holes (SMBH) to deal with. If the singularity in the SMBH is the Anti, then what should that mean???

I believe I have the answer for this...any takers?

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RussT
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Everything is, as it should be, otherwise, it wouldn't be!

A black hole can't "connect" to a white hole, because the black hole's mass does not diminish. The matter that falls in (black holes do not "suck") stays somewhere inside the sphere denoted by the event horizon. So, it can't be reappearing somewhere else.

The obvious definition of an anti-singularity would be a time-reversed black hole.

Honestly, I think that's an oversimplification. The problem is not just with what happens at the singularity; it's also with what happens as you approach it.

But wouldn't that also be a singularity? You would have infinite density, either way.

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"All your bias are belong to us." Ara Pacis
"A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

The MIT astrophysicist I took a relativity and cosmology course from last summer said that white holes are theoretically possible, since everything in physics is reversible, but that they are not very stable and that the slightest irregularity disrupts them. Kind of like trying to balance a playing card on its edge.

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Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.

White holes are a perfectly valid mathematical solution to the equations of general relativity, but that doesn't mean that they actually exist in nature. In fact, they almost certainly do not exist, since there's no way to produce one. (Producing a white hole is just as impossible as destroying a black hole, since the two processes are time-reversals of each other.)

source

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"All your bias are belong to us." Ara Pacis
"A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

Hmmm Anti-Singularity? Something exanding out of nothing..

Dont't we have a name for that already? Politicians....

*ducks*

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