My quotes are as they were on Scott's page, when I created my page. Unfortunately, that was a long time ago. Scott's few pages have turned into a monster collection, and have been radically altered since I wrote my rebuttal. I'm sure I need to thoroughly revise my page, but it's a task I lack the time & patience to perform, at least for now.

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The point of philosophy is to start with something so simple as not to seem worth stating, and to end with something so paradoxical that no one will believe it. -- Bertrand Russell

My Dear Eta,

IMO, you are extremely touchy about this subject, and you completely misunderstand me personally as it relates to this subject. I am not Dr. Manuel. I am not Scott. I was not arguing that any neutrino experiment was flawed, or that there is a problem with the gas model as it relates to neutrinos. In fact, if you weren't so touchy about this subject you would have noticed that I already agreed with you and Tim that the neutrino problem that was cited by Scott as a "big deal" was now a moot point. I'll even go so far as to say that neutrino measurements (crude though they might be at the moment) are one of the few direct "observations" that actually seems to SUPPORT the gas model. Honestly Eta, you really need to let this neutrino issue go as it relates to me personally. You are tilting at windmills IMO.

I was simply trying to explain the technical limitation of trying to see WHERE these neutrino emission originate on the sun. I'd personally love to have SOHO type resolution images of neutrino emissions. I never suggested neutrino counts were a problem for any model, not the gas model nor for my model. I personally would not be a bit surprised however to see that these neutrinos originate in the arcs, just like most of the photons seen in SXT images rather than in the core as gas model theory suggests. The article that upriver cited even seemed to suggest this might be the case. In either case, I'm in agreement with you that current neutrino measurements are in alignment with gas model theory and that these measurements, while limited in resolution, do provide some support to gas model theory. Do you hear me on this point?

Quite honestly Eta it's very clear that somehow I offended you right at the start of our conversations. I did not mean to do that and I'm sorry for whatever I said that "set you off" initially.

Please now take a deep breath, consider what I said in this post and reread what I said originally. I wasn't trying to insinuate anything was "flawed" about neutrino measurements, quite the contrary. At worst case I would suggest that the evidence is "limited" only by resolution. I would however grudgingly have to agree that neutrino counts represent one piece of direct observational evidence that does jive with gas model predictions, in spite of some early concerns and setbacks.

I agree. Neutrinos are an observation. They are a product of fusion.
And since the detectors have an array of PMT's, depending on which lights up, you have a good indication of the direction that the recoil flash? comes from, from which you can deduce the direction of the neutrino. Which indicates that fusion is happening in the direction of the sun.
It might be happening on the surface, which supports the electric sun model or there will be a small area in the center of the sun which supports the core fusion model. We will find out when they have a detector with the resolution.

The Genius Detector might be able to do it.
"Thus, the sensitive volume would be naturally divided into 300 cells which helps in background discrimination, since a neutrino interaction is taking place in a single cell."
http://www.mpi-hd.mpg.de/non_acc/Genius-sol_neutr.html

Maybe if you laid it out as a multilayer flat panel? you could get the required resolution.
I'm assuming they have to discriminate the background energies in real time
using a multi channel analyzer with lotsa horse power and some cool software.

The more I think about neutrinos, the more I am leaning in the direction of them being a manifestation of the unified field underlayment.

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"Only those who attempt the absurd will achieve the impossible." - M. C. Escher

"Freedom is popular." -Ron Paul

i have just recently learned that all atoms have an electric current in them. i just thought that was a interesting little tid bit of info to pass along!!

I want to point out the similarity between Enceladus' jets and Prometheus' jet. Saturn's moons Enceladus amd Prometheus have a common feature that currently have two very different explanations. Prometheus was thought to be "stealing" material from Saturn's rings by gravity and Enceladus it though to have "ice volcanoes".
As I mentioned earlier in this and another thread, there is no evidence the material is moving towards Prometheus, it could also be jetted. Both show a one-sided plume, and this begs the question how these jets are formed. Ice volcanoes are out of the question for Prometheus and extremely unlikely for Enceladus, I think the magnetosphere of Saturn plays a much larger role than currently acknowledged (see Showalter's comment here)

The explanation that the EU has to offer links all these strange findings together and it makes more sense to me than supposing mysterious internal heat sources and trying to find a way to get these ice volcanoes working only at Enceladus' south polar region. See here, here, here and here.

Cheers.

Just a question relating to the link Upriver gave

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0512/02supernova/

in it it was said:
"The luminous supernova remnants that we see can be created without the need of a dense interstellar medium. In fact, our study showed that all supernovae detected in X-rays over the past 25 years live in a low-density environment."

Does that say something about supernovae or does it say something about
x-ray detection?

May I play the devil's advocate? (sorry about the pun). Why do comets exhibit both a tail away and a spike toward the Sun? Such as comet 1957 Arend-Roland as photographed on p. 233 in Donald Yeoman's book Comets 1991.

http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclo.../antitail.html
this describes an Anti Tailhttp://cometography.com/lcomets/1956r1.html
this is the picture of your comet

Your sourse says it's an optical illusion. Something like swamp gas, I guess. Would the anti-tail of Kohoutek's Comet 1973 as photgraphed from Skylab and re-presented as artist's reditions by NASA for Dec. 28- 30 of 1973 be brushed off as illusions too? Sorry but picture is in a book by Nigel Calder called Comets: Speculation and Discovery 1994 edition.

If you were able to see it, you would see that it continues in a ion trail(birkeland current) all the way to the sun. You would also find that the straight tail of the comet extends to the heliosphere.
When you place an object in a plasma, the object provides a virtual ground between the real ground(heliosphere) and the source, in this case the sun, thereby increasing the current flow over just a plasma.
Just imagine the comet as a knot in a Birkeland Current that runs from the sun to the heliosphere.

See this picture of Hale-Bopp.
http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/comet/puckett4.html
And then this
http://www.johndyer.com/ArcCeiling.jpg

__________________
"Only those who attempt the absurd will achieve the impossible." - M. C. Escher

"Freedom is popular." -Ron Paul

when Earth crosses the plane of a comet’s orbit (your source) vs. "A true cometary antitail is seen when an active comet passes through the Earth's orbital plane..." (my source)-Donald K. Yeoman's p. 48 from my above source. Which is it, Wayneee?

Not very similar to me...

From this link, it looks as if the scientists know perfectly well the speed of a comet's tail, and that it is compatible with the speed of the solar wind. This disagrees with the idea of the tail as a Birkeland current that runs to the heliosphere, and with the idea of a straight tail.

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Knowledge is a curse, but ignorance is worse

As I understand it , the Anti-tail is a phenomenon due to looking partial looking through the Comets tail and distortion of Comma. Fr. Wayne, if you have an alternate theory I would love to hear it.

It seems that comets can have up to THREE tails. For example, it is claimed that Hale-Bopp had tails of ions, dust and sodium Ref.

A spate of recent news items shows comet-tail-like phenomenon:

• (19 Dec 2005) Enceladus is Creating one of Saturn's Rings, which describes:
  "Some unknown process ... causing this plume of ejected material , and "plasma plumes".
  .
• (5 Dec 2005) New View of Space Weather Cold Fronts featuring plasma plumes;
  Even the Earth has a plasma plume similar to a plasma fountain.
  .
• (29 Nov 2005) "Ice Volcanoes on Enceladus",
  which bares an uncanny resemblance to a coronal discharge (first image).

The common factor? Birkeland currents. See:

• Magnetosphere Ionosphere Interactions - Near-Earth Manifestations of the Plasma Universe (1988) Falthammar, C. G.
  Abstract | In full
  
  See section 4: "The extraction of ionospheric ions is related to the Birkeland currents both directly through exchange of charge carriers and indirectly by parallel and perpendicular ion acceleration mechanisms driven by the Birkeland currents."

And see also:

• Filamentation of Volcanic Plumes on the Jovian Satellite Io,
  Anthony L. Peratt and A. J. Dessler, Astrophys. Space Sci. 144, pp. 451-461, 1988
  Abstract | In full

Regards,
Ian Tresman

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Ian Tresman
plasma-universe.com

Waynee, I don't have the foggiest idea. I just point out that Encyclopedias are more than ten letters long, therefore I suspect their motives. If a photograph of a comet is not exactly on the point where either the Earth is in the comet's orbital plane, or the comet is in the Earth's orbital plane, then swamp gas is my only theory for both sources.

• Where in that article does this quote stands? The word "plasma" doesn't appear in that link...
  
  Quote:

  . (5 Dec 2005) New View of Space Weather Cold Fronts featuring plasma plumes; Even the Earth has a plasma plume similar to a plasma fountain.

  Plasma, yes, but comet-tail-like? I don't see that in the article.
  
  Quote:

  . (29 Nov 2005) "Ice Volcanoes on Enceladus", which bares an uncanny resemblance to a coronal discharge (first image).

I don't see the relation to plasma, and the resemblance to a coronal discharge isn't that "uncanny" either. It's an eruption, no more, no less.

__________________
Knowledge is a curse, but ignorance is worse

It does not look like a volcanic eruption on earth or an eruption on IO.

But it look like a comet !

Ice Volcanoes on Enceladus

Again with the 10-letter thing. What's up with that?

__________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
Philip K. Dick, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes."
Mark Twain

Avatar courtesy of Bunny.

Here's a theory: Anti-tails exist only on comets with hyperbolic orbits. (Brian Marsden, please forgive my stupidity. But I do forget more than I have learned.)

Is obvious troll... I suggest contact moderator.

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So descredo no incrivel

Beauty I’d always missed
With these eyes before,
Just what the truth is
I can’t say anymore.

-- Moody Blues

Unless I'm way off here, I don't think we've ever spotted a comet with a hyperbolic orbit.

In order to study the electrical mechanisms possibly involved, I would like to amend my theory to include a test for separating true from false anti-tails much like Finson and Probstein technique, where a true anti-tail must display a significant difference via infrared photometry between the anti-tail and the dust particles common to the comet's coma and tail.

It seems strange the 'electric' field of comets would be aligned with the sun. Perhaps 'anti-tails' are merely geyser like emissions due to temperature differentials between the 'light' and 'dark' side of the comet trajectory. The 'anti-tail' should be strongly polarized if this is the case.

You seem to be up to date on the many mechanisms involved. Could you clear up the controversy found above concerning anti-tail definitions:
If Yeoman's definition of anti-tails is correct then you are on target, but if the web encyclopedia is based of more up to date information than I will stick to my theory hoping that somewhere in the literature there is infra-red photometry data which shows similar results in dusty "captured" comets as Ney found in Kohutek's anti-tail.

( an aside- Saturn, Uranus and Neptune have slid outward from their birthplaces. Jupiter has moved toward the sun from its original home., according to Donald Yeomans, a planetary scientist at NASA's JPL in Pasadena, Calif.,- GO gET'EM yEO )http://www.twincities.com/mld/pionee...l/13486989.htm

Let's assume that polarized anti-tails reveal a mixed bag of results. Sometimes dirty comets show bigger chunks of polarized light, while older or more spherical comets reveal smaller chunks in polarized light. Using infra-red photometry we have already determined that a comet can have silicate chunks radiating in all directions from the nucleus of over 4 AU such as in Hale-Bopp. HERE's SOME LIT I'VE FOUND " Nearly simultaneous photometry of the reflected and thermal infrared spectra of periodic comets Encke, Chernykh, Kearns-Kwee, Stephan-Oterma, and Tuttle are presented. The 10-micron silicate emission feature has been detected for the first time in periodic comets and was observed in three of these objects. The albedo of the dust particles in the comae of these comets is calculated and compared to that of Comet Kohoutek. The peculiar behavior of the dust in Comet Encke is discussed." from http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/np...ML&format= (wish I could see this info) NOW IF DIFFERENCE CAN BE VERIFIED, WE HAVE A THEORY WHICH CAN NOW ALLOW FOR "ELECTRIC" MECHANISM

Look at the polarization data again. Compare the anti-tail to the tail data.

This is sound advice and very logical. So far the literature seems to claim that the lack of silicate emissions in anti-tail are due to the large chunks which optically blocked out the smaller microns. But this is a best guess due to lack of enough hyperbolic anti-tails. If a magnetic field held large chunks around nucleus, would this also block detection of smaller emissions more consistently throughout the observed "life" of the anti-tail during it's polarized viewing?? Even if possible, it's back to the drawing board.

Great Electric Universe story,
"Protecting astronauts, craft from 'killer electrons'"
http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0601/01cluster/

"Usually called the 'Van Allen radiation belts', they are filled with particles trapped by Earth's magnetic field. Observations showed that the inner belt contains a fairly stable population of protons, while the outer belt is mainly composed of electrons in a more variable quantity."

Of course only ESA not NASA would release something like this.

__________________
"Only those who attempt the absurd will achieve the impossible." - M. C. Escher

"Freedom is popular." -Ron Paul

As it says right at the beginning of the article, Cluster was an ESA mission, so I would expect them to release the results.
Also: Let me point out "enhanced our knowledge", "major breakthrough", "unique multipoint measurements capability".
What was NASA supposed to release? Results of measurements they did not perform?

__________________
papageno


"Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous?" - Hobbes (Calvin and Hobbes)

"It's all about context!" - Vince Noir (The Mighty Boosh)

"I've never heard of such a brutal and shocking injustice that I cared so little about!" - Zapp Brannigan (Futurama)

"...because the logic of the lines traced from reality is as poor of aesthetic value as it is strict in consistency. " - Paolo Bozzi (Naive Physics - free translation)

"High Energy Hadronic Acceleration in
Extragalactic Radio Jets"

"The observed high energy synchrotron emission of extragalactic radio jets
in the optical and X-ray-regime clearly indicates the presence of magnetic
field-aligned electric fields along the whole jet lengths. The leptons need such
electric field to be continuously re-accelerated, otherwise they would loose their
TeV energies on length scales that are orders of magnitudes smaller than the
observed jet lengths."
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/0106/0106530.pdf

__________________
"Only those who attempt the absurd will achieve the impossible." - M. C. Escher

"Freedom is popular." -Ron Paul