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  #331 (permalink)  
Old 13-January-2006, 08:22 PM
Michael Mozina Michael Mozina is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISflotsam
This seems to be a very important point, and at the risk of heading into tangent territory, bears reinforcing.

The images you're manipulating here (and elsewhere on your website) are representations of data collected about solar emissions at specific wavelengths. Neither the emissions themselves, nor the properties being collected are descernable (or even interpretable) by the human eye. LMAL has "painted" the data in order to a draw visual parallel.
That is certainly true of the images in question.

Quote:
Attempting to directly manipulate the images themselves into something more visually meaningful is of questionable value. As AstroSmurf points out, it's the underlying data that needs to be evaluated and compared, not the "manufactured" visual representation. And, logically, using tools designed for the manipulation of standard photos (i.e PhotoShop and whatever morphing software you've used in your movies) will likely produce dubious scientific results.
Well, I'm quite in agreement it's not the "best" tool for this specific task, but assuming the techiniques used did not change the data in any way, the data would be "accurate" no matter what package is used. I hear your point however and my experiences with Photoshop (even with extensions) make it pretty clear it's not well suited to this kind of work specifically.

Quote:
Attempting to colorize and overlay the three images in PhotoShop will likely result in a new image that is, at best, "pretty". I'm not sure that many meaningful scientific conclusions could really be drawn from it.
In an of itself, you are correct, though it would certainly isolate the areas that emit the most light and the areas that do not. Many areas that are "dark" in the original three images (171, 195 and 284A) are "painted" blue by Lockheed, which presumably represent HIGHER temperatures than the areas that are lit.

Quote:
I would broadly liken it to overlaying a USA Today-style data-map of the US that uses red to identify areas containing populations with incomes between $25K and $50K on top of another that uses blue to identify incomes between $75K and $100K. Other than highlighting areas with diverse incomes, what, exactly, could we infer from the newly-created "purple" areas? Scale, OOM comparisons and quantifiable measurements are effectively masked by the new purple blotches. On the other hand, if we took the original data and created a new map, we could visually represent any number of scientifically meaningful things.

I think this line of "analysis", Michael, is what a number of your detractors view as a fundamental flaw in your argument. The images you're working with are not standard photos and generally should not be treated as such.--ISF
In this particular case, I'm inclined to agree that a "better" software tool would be quite helpul from a purely mathematical perspective. On the other hand, adding the black and white images together show areas of the surface that remain dark yet are colored blue in processed image. That does not jive with their explanation.

The key reason I have tried to introduce other satellite images like RHESSI, and added the link from Maryland University is to demonstrate that the highest electron concentrations, and the highest temperature plasma is found in the arcs/loops. I have seen this effect since the very first Yohkoh image I looked at. It never occured to me that this issue would ever even be in doubt. I assumed everyone already KNEW that the loops were the "hottest" things we see based on the fact that these loops/arcs emit the highest energy photons. It never occured to me that this aspect of solar physics was ever in question, even in gas model theory.
  #332 (permalink)  
Old 15-January-2006, 03:03 AM
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The Bad Astronomer The Bad Astronomer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Mozina
Observation is the purest form of science Gillianren. One picture is said to be worth a thousand words, and one test verified by direct observation is worth a thousand expert opinions.

Only through observation can we tell whether or not a "theory" applies to "reality". Theories are great, but they all must be tested against real life observation to see whether or not these various theories even apply.
This is at best an incomplete statement – observations are only part of the story. An observation is worse than useless if you misapply it: it leads you in the wrong direction. Observations in and of themselves are important, even critical, but they must be interpreted. Therein lies the rub.

Thousands upon thousands of words have been written here, but it really still boils down to the same thing we have been saying since Word One: you've been simply looking at images and interpreting them without the benefit of any math, physics, or even understanding of how the images are made. There have been countless posts here trying to show you how to apply any and all of these three things, yet you have studiously avoided doing so. After all this time, that's a banning offense by itself.

But we also have a rule here about answering direct questions in a timely manner. Nereid asked you questions, and gave you two days to answer them. You then promised multiple times that you'd respond to his pointed questions next. You didn't. In fact, it's been 12 days since the questions were asked, and you've posted in other threads since then, but still have not answered the questions. In fact, this can be traced even farther back to October of last year, still with no real answer. Then, when you do post again in that thread, it’s about your solar model, and does not answer the imaging questions asked of you.

Nereid and I are in agreement about this. I and the moderators here have bent over backwards for you, hoping against hope you'd post an actual quantitative reply to any of the questions asked of you, and it's clear you never will.

I cannot make this any more clear:

1) Looking at pictures posted on the net, even looking at raw and processed data, does not support your ideas if you don't understand the processes behind how the data were taken and the basic physical processes involved, and

2) People must answer direct questions asked of them, especially in the ATM forum, doubly especially when a moderator/admin asks them.

Given this, I am banning Michael Mozina permanently. I am also closing this thread.
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