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[QUOTE=RussT;804773]Well, Bogie, please don't chuckle 'sadly', just chuckle, cause I'm going to let you in on a little known secret.
Everything that has been done in the last 100 years (pertaining to the universe as a whole) has been 'imaginative speculation' (I'm going to be admonished for this one!), which is the reason they can't figure out... DE/DM (96% of the universe), How SMBH's are made, what comes first the SMBH or the galaxy, how galaxies are even formed (they don't merge to form), how very massive and fully developed galaxies (and at least 10 billion years old) formed in the very early Big Bang scenario, how "NEW" galaxies have formed in the very recent (within a billion years and less) past, etc. Quote:RussT Now, since baryonic matter does not influence/interact with that 'background' field, what is the only thing that can influence it??? Tell me and explain. The making of a NEW massive black hole 'warps' the background gravitational field into the shape of a galaxy, and the baryonic matter (the Hydrogen and Helium and Lithium) that is created when the radiation cools enough to do so, Quote:
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We normally think of GR 'warpage of space' as a baryonic star/planet causing a 'warp' that other baryonic matter (planets around the sun) are falling into. The baryonic matter causes a gravity well that less massive objects must follow the path of. But when a star is formed, it does not affect the space around it other than cauing the gravitational well. Now, since 'space' is made up of the infitesimal EEP's (or whatever is finally determined to be), the smallest units, all of space is pure gravity, its own seperate gravitational field that does not interact with the baryonic matter, so when the massive black hole is being formed (in addition to causing and concentrating the 2 to 3 million sol masses of gravity into a very small area *ah, we now can see where all that mass/gravity is coming from), it is not only causing a 3 million sol mass worth of gravity well, it is also 'Torqueing', or 'spinning' that 'background' gravity field into the shape of a galaxy. That is why you can see the HI in the Ghost Galaxy linked above already in the spiral shape that it is in. There are obsolutely no mergers going on to form this galaxy and low and behold the galactic core appears to be the first thing that has star formation happening and yet there is all that HI already sitting in its spiral shape for that galaxy to evolve into a LSB and then a HSB galaxy. Now, why is it going to be so hard to show how this all works in GR? Because we have absolutely no idea (YET), how that background gravitational field moves, how much strength the tensor calcs should have, how the 'Gravity of Space' is even causing the massive black hole to manefest itself, how much 'Torque' to actually apply, and a few more major problems that I probably haven't considered. If someone were to actually figure this out on their first attempt, they should defintely get 2 Nobels. I believe it will take many GR experts, many years to figure this out fully! BUT, just because we don't have the answers for this yet, DOES NOT mean that it is not happening!
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RussT ________________________________ Everything is, as it should be, otherwise, it wouldn't be! |
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What are some examples of "the formation and destruction of [...] atomic particles"? |
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Nereid, thank you for your questions. I recognize that as a moderator you have some responsibility to offer some perspective as a bridge between the mainstream and “against the mainstream”. I have identified my posts as speculation, and have offered them here in order to start and participate in a message board discussion about ideas that are thought to be so far out that credentialed scientists would not have any interest in participating, accept maybe to point out the uselessness and futility of such discussions.
To elaborate on my ideas is one thing. To tie them back to real science is not possible. That is the point of calling them “against the mainstream” speculations, am I right? I’ll answer your questions from the perspective of discussing speculative, un-provable, non-science. Don’t expect my answers to make sense in the world of reality. If you have a preconceived position that they need to be refuted and dispelled, don’t bother; no one with any sense will be deceived or mislead by my imaginative speculation, I’m sure. Quote:
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One obvious and understandable posture in science is that those who are best informed about research are not interested in lay ideas because if there was a good idea, some educated and credentialed scientist would think of it, and it would be a waste of time to weed through all the hair-brained ideas from fringe characters. Quote:
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This is a never ending process in a greater universe that has always existed, is infinite, is filled infinitely with matter and energy, and where big crunches and big bangs occur here and there, now and then, fueled by the very nature of the unifying elemental energy wave/particles that premeate space. I call it the Infinite Spongy Universe (ISU). |
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a) (most? all??) the terms in your speculation are not defined (or, being generous, ill-defined) b) there is little, if anything, to link any part of your speculation to any part of modern physics (including astrophysics and cosmology) c) specifically, there is no quantification; there are no units, no math, no equations, no estimates, ... not even any handle which anyone might be able to use to even begin with any such d) and so on. If my summary is reasonably accurate, then in what way could any BAUT member "rip it [your idea] apart with good science"? Oh, and regarding: Quote:
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Bogie, keep going because you have some very intuitive and 'possibly' valid and useful ideas!
Graviton's, Higgs boson/field, Strings, and all the rest I noted above, are 'all' speculative, and when this all shakes out, the one that describes the 'base unit' the best will win. Hint; There are no 'ultimate' black holes or big crunches. Just deal with what we do know...that massive black holes reside in the center of galaxies.
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RussT ________________________________ Everything is, as it should be, otherwise, it wouldn't be! |
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I posted here for fun and relaxation, and to get some discussion of ideas. I'll take your advice and tone down my speculation in the future. Forget all that imaginative speculation about the EEP that doesn't comply with the rules that I have had pointed out to me by the BAUT people. I know that they must mean well, and are trying to protect the integrity of the boards from threats like me. ![]() |
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The wave/particles EEPs are very interesting.
Our space is like a perfect membrane. RussT many times called it. The energy deform its surface so the distance in stright line become shorter. If the wave is in resonance frequency to the structure of this membrane (space-time) it may stay as a standing wave (seiche) a rest mass particle. The deformations above a medium are attracted by the deformations under a medium. That way everything is attracted because all waves consists of the above and under medium deformations. It is possible if space-time is something substantives (EEPs) and an energy deform it (wave/particle). The energy has its potential (gravitational deflection) component and its kinetic (movement) component. The gravitational deflection is attractive and kinetic is repulsive. It is not possible to keep a small Black Hole because much stronger kinetic repulsive energy. |
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I think that "space and its so called Warpage" is just too gosh darn convenient. because no one and I do mean no one has described the physical properties of which Allows space to be warped. therefore can do what we want with space. which I object to. |
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you have a particle with infnite density BUT with NO infinite space. let me explain. each and every particle has a minimum of space which Allows such and such particle to exist. so that as the density of the particle increases so does the space. |
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centripital force is what I call gravity. Quote:
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actually as the density increases so does the space increase and the mass within this space expands at the sametime. |
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You may agree that if science were able to get to the bottom of how gravity works then we could apply that knowledge to the unfolding of other science, like anti-gravity for instance, which would have obvious applications. Would it be correct to assume that you are interested in the discussion about ether, or maybe it can be called a permeating background, of even a pervasive elemental energy wave/particle? Maybe Nereid can help by correcting the terms I use or at least by challenging them specifically (instead of using the broad brush) so I can try to be more descriptive, while using plain English that most people can understand. |
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I don't see how this works. Please explain.
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in order to "warp space", space its self must have some physical aspect to it. you can't just warp emptyness. in a pure vaccum( no mass or energy present) for instance you would have to show that you could in fact "affect space". Quote:
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but this is besides the point. Quote:
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otherwise continue!! |
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So the observation that you are making is that the gravity that acts across "empty" space must have some physical aspect to it. One option is that the attraction is due to waves that propagate from both objects and as the waves meet in space, an attraction results. This is a weak attraction. I speculate (forgive me) that there is a wave/particle (EEP) emanation that orbits the emanating mass (the objects), and as two objects move within the range of the shared orbiting emanations, there is attraction. The orbiting emanations are of infinitesimal mass, but even their tiny mass attracts the tiny mass of the EEP emanations of the other object and they are drawn together; i.e. the orbiting emanations are part of the emanating object in that the wave/particles that make up the orbiting emanations actually traverse highly elliptical orbits around the particles that comprise the emanating object. I am thinking that the electrons are the primary source of the emanations, themselves orbiting the nucleus of an atom in the emanating object; the electron consists of millions of orbiting EEPs that have come together to form the electron. The range of these orbits has to be of epic proportions capable of reaching out into space for great distances. Millions of EEPs orbiting around a common center of gravity of the individual electrons are tracing out millions of different orbits, with the vast majority being very confined and forming the majority of the electron, while a smaller number of the orbits are very far reaching and serve as the emanations from the emanating objects. The mass of the emanating object determines the amount of EEP emanations, and so more massive objects emanate greater attraction. I say electrons might be the primary source of the attracting emanations because the protons and neutrons in the nucleus of the atoms, though also composed of EEPs, have much more orderly EEP orbit configurations. This makes their attraction much stronger at a very short distance, but not as effective at the greater distances where gravity operates. Pure speculation of course. |
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Every electron has the same rest mass and charge. It is not an accidently, statistical amount. It is a property of the space. The Planck length is 10^-45 m but we observe the structures till 10^-17 m. What is in between ? During electron/positron creation a chaotic movement of the energy (photons) create an exactly definite structure. This structure moves around a proton as a wave, it is not a particle like a planet around the Sun. We may define a position of the electron with a probability according to uncertainty principle but this electron remains stable. The energy (mass) causes a length contraction. The space is deformed in an extra dimension . This deformation is oscillating as Schroendiger Zitterbewegung. That way we observe a wave/particle. The oscillating space causes an attractive force. It is pushed from outside and pulled from inside and it is a gravity. I do not know how a graviton can attract another mass anless there is a difference in the gravitons density. It is like a background oscillation and space deformation at least. The charge (+) and (-) act as overdense and underdense space oscillation. |
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Then you mention the Planck length is 10^-45 m but we observe the structures till 10^-17 m. What structure is 10^-17m? Is that the electron? Quote:
Are you thinking that the photon is equivalent to the EEP in my scenario? Quote:
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The structured particle has a vibration determined by the pulsing EEPs that make it up. The vibration pattern allows for a certain size structured particle to form, but greater size is thwarted by the combined vibration pattern that make the structured particle unstable beyond a certain size. |
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Everything moves with a speed of light (speed of information). The high energetic particle oscillating faster and are oscillating with a space (EEPs) with a higher frequency. This oscillation affect on the other particle. Every particle is in oscillating gravitational field of the all particles in the Universe. This oscillations may be balanced by a pressure of the next particles or become a kinetic energy and aceleration. It is inertia. A positron has an opposite spin relatively to electron and moves in opposite direction after creation. That way is its existence possible. The spin polarisation is very important for the charge interaction. This movement is much more stronger then gravitational inward oscillation. A photon is just a portion of the energy and this energy warps the space. EEP could be every kind of the energy (radiation, gravitational and EM field, rest mass) together with its pulsing space. My speculations are very similar to yours, I think. |
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Borehole: http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/physics/pdf/0512/0512109.pdf
flat orbital: http://www.mountainman.com.au/process_physics/HPS28.pdf
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RussT ________________________________ Everything is, as it should be, otherwise, it wouldn't be! |
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I wrote sometimes earlier that a gravitational field has its energy (virtual particles) and it is interacting with a mass like a light. Every particles are joint in our Universe by this gravitational field sent by this every particle. This gravitational field (quantum foam, virtual particles) moves through a warped space and is deformed (lensed) as a light beam. The kinetic energy and gravitational energy are together a Dark Energy. The distortion of the Dark Matter in the gravitational field of the Galaxy and Galaxy Cluster gives an effect of the Dark Matter. A gravitational field of the galaxy far away in the space has its weight. It causes the velocity curvature shape and singular acceleration (g). |
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Theory says that the spewed virtual particles don’t just knock objects around, but can attract objects to each other as well. In an attempt to visualize this happening, I have imagined an elementary particle, i.e. a particle that all other particles are composed of; a unifying elementary energy wave/particle I call the EEP). Going on the idea that all other particles are composed of these EEPs, I visualize space, the place in which all events occur, being permeated with them. As they interact with each other they form groupings, and these groupings form the sub-structure of all other particles. If pressed on how the EEPs interact to form groupings that have enough stability to serve as substructure for larger particles, I visualize the specific EEP with three characteristics that would allow such groupings. 1) The EEP would be extremely dense but of course not infinitely dense. Each individual EEP is the perfect “closed” space and its own closed space is nearly infinitely warped. It is so dense and its space is so warped that it is constantly collapsing on itself until it can’t collapse any further, and then it expands, only to collapse again, over and over in a pulsing fashion. Each collapse increases the density of the EEP and decreases the volume. The collapse is caused by the closed space that has extreme warping, but the collapse cannot actually produce infinite density and so must stop collapsing before infinity density is reached. The momentum of the collapse is stopped abruptly by the unachievable limit of infinite density and there is a reaction, i.e. a bounce. The bounce causes an expansion of the EEP. It expands until the extreme closed space regains control, overcomes the bounce, and causes the next contraction (collapse). Thus the EEP is an infinitesimal perpetual motion machine, pulsing as it expands and collapses between near infinite density and extreme warped space. 2) Each pulsing EEP is traveling at the speed of light in an environment that is permeated with EEPs. They have infinitesimal mass and a pulsing cycle. Two independent EEPs that come into contact will have angular momentum and each will be at some point in their pulse cycle. Depending on the compatibility of their angular momentum and cycle, they will interact in various ways. One way for them to interact is for them to attempt to orbit each other, which results in a mutual change in angular momentum and at least a temporary ongoing relationship, lasting until terminally interfered with by other interactions. Space is permeated with EEPs going through this interactive “dance”. 3) Over time, EEP pairs will form in close orbit. The pair will have a vibration described by the point that each EEP is at in its pulse cycle. Over time, stable groups will form out of these close orbit pairs, triads, quads, etc. There is a wide variety of possible stable groupings based on the number of EEPs in the group and the group vibration. The group remains stable as long as the mutual attraction exceeds the chaotic group vibration. Stability is limited by the compatibility of the vibration of the group, and the group (call it a sub-particle composed of multiple EEPs) stabilizes at the point where no additional EEPs can be added in a stable fashion. Nearby EEPs are attracted to the stable group and will readily exchange places with an EEP in the group, but the total size of the group is limited and is therefore capable of being a stable EEP grouping that can form larger particles as EEP groupings themselves combine with each other. Various types of stable EEP grouping would form based on the vibration of the initial close orbiting group. Getting back to the virtual particles that are spewed out from objects, I am picturing them as being individual EEPs permeating space and that are influenced by stable grouped EEPs that have formed particles that make up the objects doing the spewing. The attraction between two objects results from the mingling of the EEPs that are influenced by each object. |
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EVERYTHING TENDS TO CREATE SYSTEM OF HIERARCHIC GROUPS http://www.blackholes.int.pl All the matter tends to create a groups. In 1930 Hermann Weyl wrote "Theory of the groups and quantum mechanic" . The electromagnetic wave concentrate into the elementary particle. This particle don't diverge in the space but create atoms and complicated chemicals combinations. All the reality seems to be quantified even the space and the time. You can see many examples for this hierarchic groups: Quark - elemental particle - atom - chemical combinations Atom - crystals - grains - rock - comet, planet Atom - nebula - stair - galaxy - galaxy group Aminacid - gen - cell - fibre - organ - living being Man - family - clan - tribe - nation Citizen - municipality - district - province - state - union Soldier - platoon - company - batalion - regiment - division - army Criminal - gang - mafia - dictatorship Mist - frog - cloud - drop - rain Brooklet - river - ocean torrent Sound - word - sentence - speech Letter - word - sentence - book - internet Stand - shop - whole sale - holding - trust Arithmetic - algebra - differential integrate calculus If it is a basic property in the Universe it means that the continuity does not exist. Everything consists of EEPs and the EEPs attract and repulse each other (potential and kinetic energy). The potential energy are usually the particles exchanged between the other particles. We are not sure about the gravity. The gravitational field seems to be most basic. I suppose the EEPs volume is oscillating and this oscillations are moving in the space. If there is sometimes enough energy the virtual particle is creating and annihilating in a very short time. This volume oscillations are inward only and their density increases toward the gravity source of course. That way it is attractive. In the EM field + and - charge are creating from one 0 charge energy. The inner whirl of the charged particle is not inward only. One is outward and other inward. That way the opposite oscillations are much stronger then the inwards gravitational only. There could be a supposition that electrons and antiprotons are gravitationally repelling. It would be difficult to prove it experimentally because much stronger EM force. It is a pure speculation. |
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He then briefly discusses how the MSSM might address one of particle physics' 'top problems' - extrapolation of the strengths of three forces (SM, weak, strong), to high temperature/energy regimes yields forces with identical strengths. How does your EEP idea relate to this puzzle? In the article, a brief discussion of "Ten Mysteries" follows. Kane makes the point that the Standard Model cannot address even one of these mysteries, but that the MSSM should be able to address all but four. The six which the MSSM should be able to address are (in shorthand, same numbering as in the article): 1. Vacuum energy 3. Inflation 4. Matter-antimatter asymmetry 5. Dark matter 6. and 7. the Higgs. How well does your EEP idea address each of these six? The remaining four are (again, in shorthand): 2. Dark energy 8. Gravity 9. The masses of the quarks and leptons 10. Why are there three generations? How well does your EEP idea address each of these four? |
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The scenario of accomplishing this feat traverses the cycle of matter from ending up in the core of a big crunch, destroying the big crunch causing a big bang, and then feeding and fueling the transition of a big bang to the point that we find ourselves in our known universe, and from here to a future big crunch somewhere, someday. It is at the heart of the complete story of the big bang, nucleosynthesis, star formation, production of heavy elements in the heart of stars, and the eventual accumulation of matter from vast arenas of space into big crunches; a full cycle of an indestructible but interactive elementary energy wave/particle (EEP). In order to accomplish this cycle the EEP must have some characteristics that set it apart for anything we can actually find and study. If we limit our description to characteristics necessary to accomplish the task, and avoid unnecessary description and characteristics, the required EEP will be a simple “thing”. Try to be logical and rational, and evaluate the EEP from a detached perspective, and you should agree that at the instant of the big bang, the particle would be in its most excited state, and the interactions between EEPs that are possible will begin very slowly because of these highly excited and rapidly expanding circumstances. I picture a rapidly expanding and hot chaotic environment of free and independent EEPs, bursting out of the big crunch in an instant, and at the same time being sucked out into space in an exponential expansion by the vacuum energy density that has built up surrounded the big crunch during its formation. The big bang burst occurs, the exponential expansion occurs, the expansion slows and the hot chaotic environment cools. In the cooling environment EEP interactions begin. At this point the characteristics of the EEP that need to be mentioned are its ability to destroy a big crunch and cause it to burst into the chaotic hot expanding environment consisting of a finite but extremely huge number of identical indestructible EEPs, too excited to interact with each other. The burst is caused by the release of pent up energy. The energy is pent up by the repression of the pulsing action of the EEPs locked in the core of the big crunch. So the EEP pulses, and as it pulses it moves at the speed of light. The pulse is caused by the fact that though it is of the tiniest possible mass, it is the densest mass possible. This near infinite density makes it contract under its own warped space or gravity. It contracts until it is impossible to contact further. The point of maximum contraction brings it as close to infinite density as it is possible to get. At this point its volume has reached the smallest possible volume short of zero. The pulse is caused by the bounce that occurs as the EEP contraction phase of its pulsing action reaches this state of maximum density and minimum volume. It can’t contract any further and the momentum of the contraction ends so abruptly that there is a physical bounce off of the near infinite limits of max density and min volume. The bounce is the expansion phase of the pulsing action. The expansion continues until the density of the EEP causes the expansion to stop and begin to contract again. It pulses repeatedly between its limits defined by its own mass, volume and density. The mass is constant and the volume and density are variables. Within the core of a big crunch the pressure increases as the matter in the crunch increases. Remember that as matter is added to the crunch, it is in various stages of decomposition, spaghettifying, or plasmaization. As the matter in the big crunch is compressed under extreme heat, the excitement level of the matter is slowly increased and the nature of the matter is processed (negated) into the free EEPs that all matter is composed of. This compressed core of highly excited EEPs continues to come under greater and greater pressure until the very heart of the core reaches maximum compression at which point EEPs can no longer move or pulse. Their pulse and movement is repressed in this locked state, and represents a growing potential energy (e=mc^2). When this lock up occurs and as the big crunch grows, the size of the locked core increases and the potential energy grows. When the potential energy of the locked core exceeds the compression of the big crunch, the crunch bursts and the locked EEPs are freed to express their highest possible excitement, starting the expansion out of the crunch and into the relative vacuum surrounding the crunch. Inflation results from this initial release of potential energy and is immediately aided by the negative pressure of the vacuum energy density that has grown in the arena from which the crunch has accumulated over billions of years. This post has addressed the introduction of the EEP and its role in the cosmology of an infinite universe where crunches and bangs defeat entropy by recycling cold matter into hot energy-rich big bangs. It has described the characteristics that cause the big crunch to burst and expand, and how inflation occurs at the instant of the big bang. I've run out of gas and will pick up the task of describing the EEP from the point of the end of the inflationay epoch to the start of nucleosynthesis or the formation of atomic particles at the nucleus of atoms that allow for the formation of hydrogen and helium, and thus star formation. Last edited by Bogie; 03-September-2006 at 10:28 PM.. Reason: spelling |
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