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Old 14-August-2006, 09:43 PM
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Default Cosmic Ancestry - Panspermia Reconsidered

Panspermia.org

Cosmic Ancestry, asks and answers(?) some important questions regarding the origin of Life on Earth, as well as Life in Space.

I personally find such a scenario as that presented as more plausible than any other, and see the evidence leading us in such a direction.

And you?
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Old 14-August-2006, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.DIM View Post
Panspermia.org

Cosmic Ancestry, asks and answers(?) some important questions regarding the origin of Life on Earth, as well as Life in Space.

I personally find such a scenario as that presented as more plausible than any other, and see the evidence leading us in such a direction.

And you?
So you are arguing from a religious point of view? I've looked over this site, and it is about religion, not science.

For instance, from Evolution versus Creationism:

In one important respect Cosmic Ancestry is fundamentally different from both Darwinism and the prevailing western religions. Both hold that life arises and evolves from simpler beginnings. Darwinism explains this process with material causes, religions do so with supernatural causes. In Cosmic Ancestry life neither arises nor evolves to more highly organized forms from simpler beginnings. With only material causes, it just doesn't work. But life can, with only material causes, descend from prior life at least as highly evolved as itself. Thus in Cosmic Ancestry life only descends. We acknowledge that this difference is profound.

As for where this life comes from "in the first place," the question may be misguided. Science cannot answer every question. For example, why is there anything instead of nothing at all? The existence of the physical world, with or without a beginning, is a phenomenon that science cannot reduce. We are suggesting that highly evolved life is a phenomenon of similar magnitude that science cannot reduce.


So, there is highly organized life "just because," there is no evolution, there is only descent from these "Just Because" creatures. It's a variation on ID.
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Old 15-August-2006, 12:29 AM
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what I want to know is, what does the word 'pan' mean? I know that 'sperm' means seed but I can't find out what 'pan' means.
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Old 15-August-2006, 12:38 AM
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[Greek panspermiā, mixture of all seeds : pan-, pan- + sperma, seed; see sperm1.]


I first came across this while researching spores.......
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Old 15-August-2006, 12:39 AM
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what I want to know is, what does the word 'pan' mean? I know that 'sperm' means seed but I can't find out what 'pan' means.
As a prefix, it means "all" or "whole."
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Old 15-August-2006, 12:57 AM
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So, there is highly organized life "just because," there is no evolution, there is only descent from these "Just Because" creatures. It's a variation on ID.
Sounds familiar.
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Old 15-August-2006, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.DIM View Post
I personally find such a scenario as that presented as more plausible than any other, and see the evidence leading us in such a direction.
Are you serious????

Here are the first few questions/answers from the FAQ of that page...

Quote:
Q. Why is Cosmic Ancestry necessary? Isn't the theory that life on Earth arose here spontaneously a perfectly adequate theory?
A. No. The theory that life can arise spontaneously from nonliving chemicals is speculative and "...will remain so until living creatures have been synthesized in the biochemical laboratory. We are a long way from that goal." J.B.S Haldane wrote those words in "The Origin of Life," in 1928. The goal looks farther away now than it did then.

Q. Isn't life as likely to have started here on Earth as anywhere else?
A. Yes. But that likelihood is still effectively zero.

Q. Didn't life have to start somewhere, somehow?
A. This is a preference that many people have, not a necessary truth. Cosmic Ancestry does not attempt to explain the origin of life in the first place. As Hermann von Helmholtz said in 1873, "if failure attends of our efforts to obtain a generation of organisms from lifeless matter, it seems to me a thoroughly correct scientific procedure to inquire whether there has ever been an origination of life, or whether it is not as old as matter."
So will you be "attempting" to argue that these ideas are reasonable?

I can't wait...
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Old 15-August-2006, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
So you are arguing from a religious point of view?
Certainly not, and neither am I arguing.

Quote:
I've looked over this site, and it is about religion, not science.
That site contains a lot of science from known and working scientists, and is well referenced.
A "once over" will hardly suffice to convince me that you know more than these guys.

Quote:
For instance, from Evolution versus Creationism:
In one important respect Cosmic Ancestry is fundamentally different from both Darwinism and the prevailing western religions. Both hold that life arises and evolves from simpler beginnings. Darwinism explains this process with material causes, religions do so with supernatural causes. In Cosmic Ancestry life neither arises nor evolves to more highly organized forms from simpler beginnings. With only material causes, it just doesn't work. But life can, with only material causes, descend from prior life at least as highly evolved as itself. Thus in Cosmic Ancestry life only descends. We acknowledge that this difference is profound.
As for where this life comes from "in the first place," the question may be misguided. Science cannot answer every question. For example, why is there anything instead of nothing at all? The existence of the physical world, with or without a beginning, is a phenomenon that science cannot reduce. We are suggesting that highly evolved life is a phenomenon of similar magnitude that science cannot reduce.


So, there is highly organized life "just because," there is no evolution, there is only descent from these "Just Because" creatures. It's a variation on ID.
Is it not possible, since the elements for Life in the universe are abundant that the universe itself is simply just geared toward developing (read evolving?) Life? You know, just because?

But do you, like most Darwinists, hold that Life started accidentally in a
warm puddle on a rock and evolved from there? In a closed system as such?

I ask because I doubt Science itself will ever be able to show how Life arose accidentally by bumping around in a soup.

I think Cosmic Ancestry does well to ask these questions.
Not because I feel there should be accepted a "just because" answer, but because the evidence apparently is leading us there.

But I certainly see why panspermia is shunned (is it, is it really?) by the mainstream.
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Old 15-August-2006, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by A.DIM View Post
But do you, like most Darwinists, hold that Life started accidentally in a
warm puddle on a rock and evolved from there?
Do you believe the start of life was purposeful??? I believe that's called religion.

Quote:
I think Cosmic Ancestry does well to ask these questions. Not because I feel there should be accepted a "just because" answer, but because the evidence apparently is leading us there.
What evidence??? Ya know, the more you post on this subject, the more obvious it becomes that you are basing your conclusions on personal biased beliefs and not on the evidence...

...so I will ask again...by what criteria (other than personal belief and a "cherry picking" of websites that say what you want to hear) are you judging the evidence?
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Old 15-August-2006, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
Are you serious????

Here are the first few questions/answers from the FAQ of that page...

So will you be "attempting" to argue that these ideas are reasonable?

I can't wait...

Nah, I won't be "attempting to argue" anything; I'd much rather some decent discourse for a change (but you simply can't ignore me).

But you, can you refute either Hoyle or Wichramasingh?
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Old 15-August-2006, 02:14 PM
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I see you've come here playin "police" again but I didn't really expect you to try to refute the scientists' work whose website we're discussing.
You can't.
Your words are aimed at my person rather than the idea we're discussing; again, ad hominem.



Quote:
Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
Do you believe the start of life was purposeful??? I believe that's called religion.
Wrong; I said nothing of the sort.

Quote:
What evidence??? Ya know, the more you post on this subject, the more obvious it becomes that you are basing your conclusions on personal biased beliefs and not on the evidence...
On what subject? Life? On earth and in space?
And what conclusions?

Do you deny the evidence for Life's elements being abundant in the universe?
Do you deny the earth is bombarded regularly with material that may contain these Life elements?

Quote:
...so I will ask again...by what criteria (other than personal belief and a "cherry picking" of websites that say what you want to hear) are you judging the evidence?
RAF, I answered this question on the other thread.

Now, answer my questions.
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Old 15-August-2006, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.DIM View Post
Panspermia.org

Cosmic Ancestry, asks and answers(?) some important questions regarding the origin of Life on Earth, as well as Life in Space.

I personally find such a scenario as that presented as more plausible than any other, and see the evidence leading us in such a direction.

And you?
I think the whole cosmic ancestry thing is an easy way out from the problem how life began. If you conclude that life on Earth originated in space and came here via meteors(or even worse, aliens) you don't have to trouble yourself with how life began in space or rather just in general since there's no reason to think life on Earth didn't begin here.
From the article:
Cosmic Ancestry does not attempt to explain the origin of life in the first place. What a surprise...

Once again this is something that in theory is possible but that doesn't make it probable let alone true.
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Old 15-August-2006, 02:35 PM
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Your words are aimed at my person rather than the idea we're discussing; again, ad hominem.
No...an example of an ad hominum would be "you are wrong because you are an idiot", and I have said nothing of the sort...stop throwing around that accusation...STOP IT NOW!!!
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Old 15-August-2006, 02:40 PM
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...answer my questions.
I'd be happy too...can you ask a "reasoned" question...free from your personal bias?
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Old 15-August-2006, 02:43 PM
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Sorry, RAF; I call it as I see it.

Both posts #7 and #9 (your only other in this thread) are aimed at me and not the idea of panspermia or the respective scientists' work.

So practice what you're preaching here, eh?



Edited to add: yet another aimed at my person and not the idea here... my alleged bias that Life is plentiful in the unieverse???
What in hell are you talking about, RAF?

I'm here finished here today...

Moderators!!!
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Old 15-August-2006, 02:45 PM
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A.DIM wrote:
Quote:
I didn't really expect you to try to refute the scientists' work whose website we're discussing.
The word scientist obviously doesn't carry the same weight it used to. How can you call the contents of the site scientific? At best it's nothing but wild speculation.
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Old 16-August-2006, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by A.DIM View Post
Certainly not, and neither am I arguing.
It is stating that certain things cannot occur through science, that sophisticated life just appeared, but provides no evidence, and argues against evolution, despite the vast amount of evidence in support. That is a religious argument. You seem to support this argument.

Quote:
That site contains a lot of science from known and working scientists, and is well referenced.
So do many ID and Creationist sites. That doesn't make the central argument any less religious. Edited to add: The quality of this "science" is often lacking, however. The references in:

http://www.panspermia.org/mechansm.htm

are illuminating even on first glance. I especially like the "Related Reading by Creationists and Other Sceptics" section. The top three items:

Michael J. Behe, Darwin's Black Box
Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis.
Phillip E. Johnson, Darwin on Trial


Hoo, boy! Behe, right at the top of the list.

Quote:
Is it not possible, since the elements for Life in the universe are abundant that the universe itself is simply just geared toward developing (read evolving?) Life? You know, just because?
"Just because" is not science. Now, it could be because molecules fit some ways better than others, and simple life can develop out of complex chemical processes, then develop further from there. How do you propose that sophisticated life just came to be? Further, what is your evidence for this?

Quote:
But do you, like most Darwinists, hold that Life started accidentally in a
warm puddle on a rock and evolved from there? In a closed system as such?
I'm not a Darwinist, a Newtonist, an Einsteinist, a Crickist, or any other -ist. I follow science based on the evidence. The proposed process of abiogenesis (not evolution of species) has non-random constraints, and the system is not closed. And, wow! For someone who isn't arguing from a religious point of view, those sure sound like Creationist/ID comments.

Quote:
I ask because I doubt Science itself will ever be able to show how Life arose accidentally by bumping around in a soup.
Again, abiogenesis isn't purely accidental. Molecules go together some ways but not others. The environment places many constraints on chemical processes. What I find fascinating is that you apparently consider this (and evolution) as impossible, but you are arguing for something far, far more difficult, which again, sounds like a religious point of view.

Quote:
I think Cosmic Ancestry does well to ask these questions.
Not because I feel there should be accepted a "just because" answer, but because the evidence apparently is leading us there.
What evidence???

Quote:
But I certainly see why panspermia is shunned (is it, is it really?) by the mainstream.
Don't mix panspermia into this "Cosmic Ancestry" argument! Panspermia is a hypothesis that life could spread between worlds. Panspermia in itself says nothing about evolution or abiogenesis, all it does is increase the playing field.
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Last edited by Van Rijn; 16-August-2006 at 10:20 AM..
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Old 16-August-2006, 06:52 AM
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That's funny, I just noticed this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
Quote:
I think Cosmic Ancestry does well to ask these questions. Not because I feel there should be accepted a "just because" answer, but because the evidence apparently is leading us there.
What evidence??? [snip]
I did not read this before I asked exactly the same thing with multiple question marks.

And in response, A.Dim wrote:

Quote:
On what subject? Life? On earth and in space?
And what conclusions?
My response is: What is your evidence for this "Just Because" Cosmic Ancestry argument? Where is your real, physical evidence for these complex life forms? What is your real physical evidence that they just came about? What is your evidence that evolution doesn't work, despite all the evidence for it? What is your evidence that all earth life came from complex life in space?

Quote:
Do you deny the evidence for Life's elements being abundant in the universe?
Do you deny the earth is bombarded regularly with material that may contain these Life elements?
In response to this: There are many elements common in the universe, including chemicals abundant in life on Earth. So what does this have to do with the "Cosmic Ancestry" argument?
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Old 16-August-2006, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
No...an example of an ad hominum would be "you are wrong because you are an idiot", and I have said nothing of the sort...stop throwing around that accusation...STOP IT NOW!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by A.DIM View Post
Both posts #7 and #9 (your only other in this thread) are aimed at me and not the idea of panspermia or the respective scientists' work.

Moderators!!!
I apologize for not being able to attend to this sooner -- the server downtime thwarted my earlier attempt.

Gentlemen: I understand there's continuing friction here over differing viewpoints which has carried over from another discussion. There's no need for the disagreement to turn hostile. Please exercise care to keep the dialogue civil and focused.

A quick note: our ruleset doesn't distinguish between the varieties of ad hominem, of which there are several. I do not see intent in R.A.F.'s comments (the issue raised of posts #7 and #9 above) to launch personal attacks against A.DIM. Specifically, they do not appear as abusive ad hominem attempts, which is what the language of our Civility and Decorum guidelines expresses (e.g.: "you're wrong because you're an idiot").

Now, if R.A.F. had dismissed the Cosmic Ancestry argument on the grounds that A.DIM's viewpoint is biased toward personal beliefs, he'd be guilty of committing circumstantial ad hominem. But I don't see that as being the case either.

Instead, R.A.F. has first asked for clarifications - a) to what specific evidence is A.DIM referring when he states it is "apparently is leading us [toward Cosmic Ancestry]"; b) by what criteria is he judging this evidence - both of which are reasonable queries, which Van Rijn has since expanded in scope.

If R.A.F. does wish to dismiss the Cosmic Ancestry argument, I'm sure he'd be willing to cite specific reasons in his reply (or replies).

Let's continue with the topic, shall we?
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Old 16-August-2006, 01:39 PM
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From the site's FAQ:

Quote:
Q. Isn't life as likely to have started here on Earth as anywhere else?
A. Yes. But that likelihood is still effectively zero.
Huh? So it's unlikely rather than likely that life on Earth began on Earth?

But hold on, it seems life didn't begin at all...

Quote:
As Hermann von Helmholtz said in 1873, "if failure attends of our efforts to obtain a generation of organisms from lifeless matter, it seems to me a thoroughly correct scientific procedure to inquire whether there has ever been an origination of life, or whether it is not as old as matter."
So life originated in the big bang?

Quote:
The big bang theory is not secure enough to serve as a foundation for beliefs about the origin of life. For example, the universe has contents which are apparently twice as old as the big bang theory indicates the universe itself should be; and the most distant galaxies we can see look as rich and fully evolved as our own, even though they are theoretically only 5 percent as old.
But of course, no big bang either...

Other highlights include the use of moon dust as evidence of life in space and of course there is no argument over the 10 year old Mars meteorite finding.
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Old 16-August-2006, 02:09 PM
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Wolverine: Thanks for taking the time, though I disagree with your assessment. I think it is clear RAF has repeatedly questioned my person rather than the topical issues.

But on with the thread!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolverine
Instead, R.A.F. has first asked for clarifications - a) to what specific evidence is A.DIM referring when he states it is "apparently is leading us [toward Cosmic Ancestry]"; b) by what criteria is he judging this evidence - both of which are reasonable queries, which Van Rijn has since expanded in scope.
I answered "a" by pointing out the general acceptance that Life's elements are abundant in the universe, on planets, moons, comets meteors, in "space" and the increasing acceptance that these elements are bombarding earth as well.
"B" I think, is almost an absurd question; I'm a layperson, a seeker of knowledge, interested in the same big questions everyone else is: why are we here? where did we come from? and where are we going?

Panspermia seems to be gaining acceptance again among astronomers et al.
Spaceref.com lists Cosmic Ancestry among several others on "panspermia" while NAI cites them as the official website.

So I agree with these folks about panspermia, which isn't really outside the mainstream these days(30yrs ago it was violently shunned, no?).
And so now my agreeeing with mainstream thought needs clarification and is considered "biased"?

No, I suspect it is the questioning of Darwinism and evolution (or even Science) that brings such vehement resistance to such ideas.
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Old 16-August-2006, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V-GER View Post
I think the whole cosmic ancestry thing is an easy way out from the problem how life began. If you conclude that life on Earth originated in space and came here via meteors(or even worse, aliens) you don't have to trouble yourself with how life began in space or rather just in general since there's no reason to think life on Earth didn't begin here.
From the article:
Cosmic Ancestry does not attempt to explain the origin of life in the first place. What a surprise...

Once again this is something that in theory is possible but that doesn't make it probable let alone true.
Indeed, however, does Darwinism and evolution explain "how life began?"
Surprised?

I am, and so I, like some scientists have followed the evidence off planet earth and consider where it leads; that is all.
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Old 16-August-2006, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by A.DIM View Post
Indeed, however, does Darwinism and evolution explain "how life began?"
Surprised?

I am, and so I, like some scientists have followed the evidence off planet earth and consider where it leads; that is all.
No, I'm not surprised. Nor am I saying it's impossible that life came to Earth from space. What I'm saying is that claiming life came to Earth from space is an easy way out from the real problem of how did life begin? However, since life on Earth is the only one we know of it's safe to assume that life got started here on Earth.

If we were to find life elsewhere, that would be a different matter. We would have to ponder whether life began independently in both places, whether it came from one place to the other or possibly to both from somewhere else, in which case we would be none the wiser. As you see, we may never know the truth of things.
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Old 16-August-2006, 03:38 PM
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It is stating that certain things cannot occur through science, that sophisticated life just appeared, but provides no evidence, and argues against evolution, despite the vast amount of evidence in support. That is a religious argument. You seem to support this argument.
You seem to have skipped the "Intro" page, first paragraph:
"Cosmic Ancestry is a new theory pertaining to evolution and the origin of life on Earth. It holds that life on Earth was seeded from space, and that life's evolution to higher forms depends on genetic programs that come from space. (It accepts the Darwinian account of evolution that does not require new genetic programs.) It is a wholly scientific, testable theory for which evidence is accumulating."

You seem to have misunderstood something by jumping to the pages pertaining to Evolution vs. Creation or the discussions pertaining to ID.

If you read carefully and more fully explore you'll discover there's an abundance of evidence the authors of the site provide to support their theory.

It is not religious at all.

Quote:
So do many ID and Creationist sites. That doesn't make the central argument any less religious. Edited to add: The quality of this "science" is often lacking, however. The references in:

http://www.panspermia.org/mechansm.htm

are illuminating even on first glance. I especially like the "Related Reading by Creationists and Other Sceptics" section. The top three items:

Michael J. Behe, Darwin's Black Box
Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis.
Phillip E. Johnson, Darwin on Trial


Hoo, boy! Behe, right at the top of the list.
Ah yes, and so by association the theory fails?
Hoo boy! I love Science!

After all, that particular page discusses the alternative, highlighting differences, but you jumped right to "related reading," no?
And found what you were looking for.


Quote:
"Just because" is not science. Now, it could be because molecules fit some ways better than others, and simple life can develop out of complex chemical processes, then develop further from there. How do you propose that sophisticated life just came to be? Further, what is your evidence for this?
Well, I am merely drawing attention to their website, so let me defer:

What's New actually provides 10yrs of support.

Quote:
I'm not a Darwinist, a Newtonist, an Einsteinist, a Crickist, or any other -ist. I follow science based on the evidence. The proposed process of abiogenesis (not evolution of species) has non-random constraints, and the system is not closed. And, wow! For someone who isn't arguing from a religious point of view, those sure sound like Creationist/ID comments.
Of course, anyone who will question Darwin and evolution will likewise be branded.

But do you agree that viruses or bacteria might well have been transported to earth on such things as comets etc, impacting and developing the already present organisms?

Quote:
Again, abiogenesis isn't purely accidental. Molecules go together some ways but not others. The environment places many constraints on chemical processes. What I find fascinating is that you apparently consider this (and evolution) as impossible, but you are arguing for something far, far more difficult, which again, sounds like a religious point of view.
Where did I say anything like "impossible?"
I understand molecules are better suited to some than others, and that's essentially the point; the elements, molecules even, for Life are everywhere and so mechanistically, NOT "mystically," the universe is naturally geared to produced Life of higher and higher forms.
Religious?
I think not.

Seems elegant and simple.

Quote:
What evidence???
Let's explore their pages more, ok?

Quote:
Don't mix panspermia into this "Cosmic Ancestry" argument! Panspermia is a hypothesis that life could spread between worlds. Panspermia in itself says nothing about evolution or abiogenesis, all it does is increase the playing field.
Sorry but Cosmic Ancestry is panspermia evolved, or developed.
How do propose to separate them?
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Old 16-August-2006, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by A.DIM
I think it is clear RAF has repeatedly questioned my person rather than the topical issues.
After re-reading my most recent posts, I "kinda" agree with A.DIM. The problem is that I am very well aquainted with A.DIM's "credulousness", so it is certainly "possible" that my posts "might" be shaded by that knowledge...(was that enough "qualifiers" ) I shall endeavour not to do that in the future...

However...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
Don't mix panspermia into this "Cosmic Ancestry" argument!
Seem like that is exactly what A.DIM is doing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.DIM
Panspermia seems to be gaining acceptance again among astronomers et al.
Spaceref.com lists Cosmic Ancestry among several others on "panspermia" while NAI cites them as the official website.

So I agree with these folks about panspermia, which isn't really outside the mainstream these days(30yrs ago it was violently shunned, no?).
And so now my agreeeing with mainstream thought needs clarification and is considered "biased"?
The Cosmic Ancestry site is obviously not mainstream or else their argument would be better than "because it is so"...

As long as it is A.DIM's contention that the Cosmic Ancestry site is mainstream, then I see no need for further participation in this thread as A.DIM is most effectively "debunking" himself.
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Old 16-August-2006, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R.A.F. View Post
After re-reading my most recent posts, I "kinda" agree with A.DIM. The problem is that I am very well aquainted with A.DIM's "credulousness", so it is certainly "possible" that my posts "might" be shaded by that knowledge...(was that enough "qualifiers" ) I shall endeavour not to do that in the future...
Reads like tourettes to me, and ambiguous enough to be construed as an acknolwedgement of fault.

Quote:
However...

Seem like that is exactly what A.DIM is doing...
Rubbish, Cosmic Ancestry IS panspermia, the modern version.
I thought you at least read the FAQs?

Quote:
The Cosmic Ancestry site is obviously not mainstream or else their argument would be better than "because it is so"...
Ignoring their evidence doesn't mean it is nonexistant, RAF.

But what about finding their site as a primary link for panspermia on Spaceref.com? Or through NASA Astrobiology Institute's "Ask an..." where we find it linked as the "official" panspermia site?
Are you also calling into question spaceref.com's and NAI's "credulousness?"

Quote:
As long as it is A.DIM's contention that the Cosmic Ancestry site is mainstream, then I see no need for further participation in this thread as A.DIM is most effectively "debunking" himself.
panspermia info for you since you appear largely uninformed on the subject.
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Old 16-August-2006, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by A.DIM View Post
Reads like tourettes...snip...I thought you at least read the FAQs...snip...Ignoring their evidence...snip...since you appear largely uninformed...
Be as insulting as you like, A.DIM...I will not respond to your "taunts" but simply repeat what I have already posted...

Quote:
Originally Posted by R.A.F.
As long as it is A.DIM's contention that the Cosmic Ancestry site is mainstream, then I see no need for further participation in this thread as A.DIM is most effectively "debunking" himself.
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Old 16-August-2006, 07:41 PM
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I'm not "taunting" you RAF; your overuse of such things as quotes, bold, italics, et al makes it difficult to get your real point, if there is one.
Inflection and nuance need not be represented by these things in discourse, or in your case and my opinion, misrepresented.


Moving on...
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Old 16-August-2006, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Van Rijn View Post
That's funny, I just noticed this:
I did not read this before I asked exactly the same thing with multiple question marks. And in response, A.Dim wrote:


My response is: What is your evidence for this "Just Because" Cosmic Ancestry argument? Where is your real, physical evidence for these complex life forms? What is your real physical evidence that they just came about? What is your evidence that evolution doesn't work, despite all the evidence for it? What is your evidence that all earth life came from complex life in space?
Though none of this is truly my evidence, nor can I claim to understand it all, I'll proffer this to show the possibility that The Universe (is) Fined Tuned for Life.

"Just because" no less.
Again, the whole idea seems so elegant and simple and... obvious!

Quote:
In response to this: There are many elements common in the universe, including chemicals abundant in life on Earth. So what does this have to do with the "Cosmic Ancestry" argument?
Hmmm.... connecting the dots...

The Origin of Life on Earth.

"But can we conclude that this elemental property of life on Earth must likewise describe other forms of life in the cosmos? Here we can apply the Copernican principle in full vigor. The four elements that form the bulk of life on Earth all appear on the short list of the universe's six most abundant elements. Since the other two elements on the list, helium and neon, almost never combine with anything else, life on Earth consists of the most abundant and chemically active ingredients in the cosmos.

Of all the predictions that we can make about life on other worlds, the surest seems to be that their life will be made of elements nearly the same as those used by life on Earth. If life on our planet consisted primarily of four extremely rare elements in the cosmos, such as niobium, bismuth, gallium, and plutonium, we would have an excellent reason to suspect we represent something special in the universe. Instead, the chemical composition of life on our planet inclines us toward an optimistic view of life's possibilities beyond Earth."
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Old 17-August-2006, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by A.DIM View Post
You seem to have skipped the "Intro" page, first paragraph:
"Cosmic Ancestry is a new theory pertaining to evolution and the origin of life on Earth. It holds that life on Earth was seeded from space, and that life's evolution to higher forms depends on genetic programs that come from space. (It accepts the Darwinian account of evolution that does not require new genetic programs.) It is a wholly scientific, testable theory for which evidence is accumulating."

You seem to have misunderstood something by jumping to the pages pertaining to Evolution vs. Creation or the discussions pertaining to ID.
I did? Let's go further down the INTRODUCTION: MORE THAN PANSPERMIA page:

Cosmic Ancestry implies, we find, that life can only descend from ancestors at least as highly evolved as itself. And it means, we believe, that there can be no origin of life from nonliving matter in the past. Without supernatural intervention, therefore, we conclude that life must have always existed. Although these conclusions cut across the boundaries between science, philosophy, and religion, we believe they are grounded in good evidence.


So, as I said before, in this so-called "theory" (which is far from a scientific theory) there is "Just Because" life and no evolution. They do not propose anything like conventional evolution, merely transfer or loss of existing genes from complex organisms.

Quote:
If you read carefully and more fully explore you'll discover there's an abundance of evidence the authors of the site provide to support their theory.
Well, I have read carefully and you seem to be having far more luck than me. Care to share some of this evidence, starting with evidence for "Just Because" life?

Quote:
It is not religious at all.
Find the evidence, and we'll talk. Until then, I hold that this is a belief system about life and existence without supporting evidence, and in contradiction to a great deal of scientific evidence. That sure sounds like a religious belief system.

Quote:
Ah yes, and so by association the theory fails?
Hoo boy! I love Science!
You said there were scientific references. Many of the references there were religious ones. Others were by notororious Creationists/IDists, such as Behe, making anti-evolution rants that have been shown to be full of errors. This is certainly enough to call motive and scientific credentials into question. Further, I didn't see supporting material.

Quote:
After all, that particular page discusses the alternative, highlighting differences, but you jumped right to "related reading," no?
And found what you were looking for.
Actually, I read the whole thing, but didn't see anything meaningful. Anyway, the point at issue were supposed scientific references. Feel free to point out those you feel support CA.


Quote:
Well, I am merely drawing attention to their website, so let me defer:

What's New actually provides 10yrs of support.
Are you arguing for CA or not? If you aren't, then there isn't anything to discuss - it's just somebody's silly idea and we can let it go at that. If you are, then support it.

As for that page, it appears to be nothing more than a list of links to the same website, containing their own bits with links to other websites. If you think there is something linked that truly supports CA, by all means mention it, but I'm not seeing it.

Quote:
But do you agree that viruses or bacteria might well have been transported to earth on such things as comets etc, impacting and developing the already present organisms?
I think that panspermia - the hypothesis that life could be transported from planet to planet - can't be ruled out as a possibility, but there is, at present, no supporting evidence for this hypothesis. Further, it wouldn't affect the process of evolution itself, and it wouldn't affect the issue of abiogenesis beyond where it might have taken place.


Quote:
Where did I say anything like "impossible?"
I understand molecules are better suited to some than others, and that's essentially the point; the elements, molecules even, for Life are everywhere and so mechanistically, NOT "mystically," the universe is naturally geared to produced Life of higher and higher forms.
Religious?
I think not.
"Naturally geared"? Or, in other words, "Just Because"? Not religious? Not mystical?

There are chemical processes that can result in life. There isn't any reason to assume that it is geared for any particular purpose, let alone "higher forms" (whatever that means).

Quote:
Seems elegant and simple.
Beliefs often do.

Quote:
Sorry but Cosmic Ancestry is panspermia evolved, or developed.
How do propose to separate them?
I already told you. Panspermia, while unsupported, is at least a viable scientific hypothesis. If we were to, say, go to Mars and find bacteria with DNA similar to that of earth life, that would be strong support for panspermia.

CA, with the argument that complex life arose either supernaturally, or existed forever "Just Because" is not scientific and further goes against a great deal of scientific evidence (including evidence for evolution and the finite age of the universe).

If you want to discuss panspermia, that's one thing, but magic origins? Pheh!
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