I should have known it would happen: without any real facts, Nancy Lieder has had to resort to lying about me.

In her IRC chat room on Saturday, May 10, she said:

Then today (May 12), in her newsgroup tt-watch, she said:

I would say that isn't apparent at all. As I have said here, I am not nor have I ever been reluctant to debate her. This is quite simply a dumb statement; if I were afraid, why would I call her up on a nationally syndicated radio show to talk to her?

"Not man enough to face a woman". Sheesh.

I never denied wanting to debate her. In fact, I was disappointed when the producer of the Coast to Coast show said they didn't want a debate. But then today I got an email saying they had so much response, they decided a debate would be a good idea.

So here we are. Despite her spin, and, let's face it, her lying, I am eager to get on the radio tomorrow. Let's see what happens.

__________________
Phil Plait
The Bad Astronomer
http://www.badastronomy.com
badastro@badastronomy.com

The thing is, the truth of what you're saying is documented here in numerous threads. It's historical, there's backup, and there's been discussion of it elsewhere.

I suggest that if she tries that tactic, that she do a search on Internet and she'll find that you are telling the exact truth and it's been well documented.

Phil,

I really hope you confront her with the "may he drown" statement she made. People need, very much need, to see she isn't the kind grandmotherly woman she tries to come across as on the radio. (and apparantly, she only tries to come across as such on the radio...)

Also, you should confront her with all this that she's been busily writing, while on the air. You'll have the c2c people behind you, confirming that you were never cowardly about debating her, and you can find out the true "reason" she wasn't invited until today. (which I doubt). She can't say anything bad about the c2c people as they are the ones who get her message out the best, and she wouldn't want to alienate them.

Good luck!!!!!!!!

Girl 101

You Go for it....


"Not man enough to face a woman".

Um, but she goes into her, uh, 'trances' 'channeling' the Zetas, are they male or female LOL!!

You win already. I've read her stuff, I've heard her...... she is seriously disturbed.

Phil it is advertised on their (coast to coast) web page that you will be debating her, just seen it. then you get the last 2 hours to youself.

Have fun.

I suspect that for her, twisting the truth has become such an everyday event that she does it automaticially. The important thing for a debate with her is just stay calm and sharp. And remember the good you're doing for all the people under her spell.

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I must not PX. PX is the mind-killer. I will face my PX. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the PX has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

I wouldn't get too worried about it Phil- I'm sure after your joint appearance on C2C the majority of the listening public in the US will be all too aware of how deceitful and delusional she is.

Its not like its the first time she's resorted to lying. ("I speak to aliens, and they tell me the future")

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<3

Should you wait for Nancy to do the lier claim?

I see no value over a spitting match, the idea is to debunk her and when faced with science and lack of supportive data, well it falls into place.

Do good Phil.

I don't think she is capable of debating. i wonder if something weird will come up to prevent the debate?

This oughta be interesting. Like trying to debate chemtrailers. :roll:

Good luck, Phil.

I appreciate that, but it is also important to point out that she has, in fact, lied. This is not meant to be a character debate, but if she lies about this, then her followers should know it. She claims 100% accuracy over and over again, but if she lies, that cannot be correct. This is critical to her basic point, and therefore relevant.

Well, if the debate is half as entertaining as the weigh-in, we're in for a classic. Go get her, Phil! Stick and move, stick and move.

Seriously, would you expect anything less from Nancy? She was probably relieved when she wasn't invited for the debate, and decided to use the classic "Cowardly Lion" tactic. You know, once she was almost certain the debate wouldn't happen, she began telling her Zeta cronies to hold her back. Psychology 101 tells me, she's the big "Chicken," so don't let her insanity get to you.

I've got to know...how do you debate someone like this? Anything you say, any discussion you try to start, can be stymied by her complete refusal to listen to any other viewpoint. You're a disinfo agent, the evil monolithic government is covering everything up, human science is wrong...those and other al-Sahafisms like that let her turn a deaf ear to anything you say. And meanwhile she can spin little nuggets of half-truth to make her look good and make you do all the work.

Is it a debate if the other person doesn't play by the rules?

I fully expect the strength of the righteous on our side, but I know how frustrating it can be to try to open a discussion with people like Lieder. Good luck to you.

Matt

Well, who do you think told here that the BA was chickening out? THE ZETANS!! DUH!!

God you guys, sometimes... sheesh!

And since the Zetans have such an excellent track record- which we by no means wish to tarnish- I sugest that the BA step down NOW! Infact, he has no choice: If the Zetans are infauable, as they clearly are (100% correct buddy!), the BA *has* to step down to aoid causing a distruption in the space time continuim, ala Star Trek Generations.

Phil has facts, Nancy has Zetas, should be a first round KO to any sane person listening. Just mention Hale Bopp, or the impossibility of the Earth's rotation starting again on it's own, and you have a one sided blood bath, on Phil's behalf. The Zetas better have a towell ready, because this could get ugly.

When facing a dragon, you don't just go up and kill it. It is strong and will fry you with a single breath. If you use the dragon against itself, it fries itself so to speak, ha.

Here is an example of what I am speaking of...
Please go to this URL:
http://www.zetatalk.com/teams/rogue/jpass.htm

Now go to her pic sites at:
http://www.zetatalk.com/teams/tteam342.htm

You will see listings and no notations of any date changes or data alterations or modifications. So, this is the current data Nancy is giving out about PX position.

Note the statement that PX is NOW to be seen on RIGHT side of the sun.
OOPS: She has posted photographs submitted from others showing that the PX is now visible in the morning sun and they are on the LEFT side of the morning sun. The 8th of May was shift day to start seeing the PX on the RIGHT side.

Ok, I don't have to know anything to see there is a conflict of information. We depose Nancy, her data is therefore unreliable. If she states it is good stuff then we can use the good stuff to debunk her own statements. Dragon fire. :wink:

Isn't it a common tactic to draw attention away from one's failures? The Earth is still rotating. The natural disasters are on par. May 15 or June or whatever is fast approaching. Nancy must sense the end is near, for her fantasy and all the attention anyway. Why not try to distract by making it a personal battle. Unfortunately, you've been targeted because you have bothered to try to talk sense. You should know by now, making sense isn't relevant to people out of touch with reality.

I wonder how stable Ms Lied is? Things could be real stressful for her right now. I know from hearing you on CtC before though, that you'll be nice to her. That's really all you can do.

__________________
~~ ><>><> ~~ ><,,> ><,,> ...`;=;p d;=;' /\/\^/\ ^^ ^/\/\_
Democracy Now! - The lost art of investigative news reporting.

Good luck Phil,

I agree with beskeptical,

You have a good attitude about going into this debate, But the person you are debating, I am not so sure.
As you are aware , Do not let it turn into a circus ,for shows ratings or any persons noteriety.

You should have YOUR turn to display facts without interuption,and as others have mentioned, try to instill that she stay on one issue at a time,
unless she gets in that" rambling on mode"....but if she does, At least you will not be "kicked off" for not agreeing with her....Like on her IRC.

Best to you

I think Nancy is cornered. She knows that sooner or later she's going to be unmasked as a liar. Her lies about you were probably to be expected. Whenever deceptive people like her get cornered, their tactic is to find a scape goat. She won't play fair. She'll try to make it personal, in order to make you lose your calm and divert attention from her failures.
In my opinion, you should avoid letting the debate get personal at all costs. If she repeats her lies about you in the debate, just deny them quickly and indifferently.
BTW, are the producers unbiased about this issue? Moderation can be decisive in a debate.

Added: Perhaps it's also useful to remember that you won't really be there to debate Nancy. You'll be there to debate the Zetatalk cult, its misconceptions and its proponents in general.

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"The moment we want to believe something, we suddenly see all the arguments for it, and become blind to the arguments against it." -George Bernard Shaw

Unfortunately someone who has managed to convince themselves of the whole Planet-X, Zetas thing is unlikely to be swayed by a well informed, logically structured argument, which I fully expect and hope she receives.

Like anyone listening who is unable, or unwilling to follow Phil's points and thus give up the whole Planet-X thing, Nancy will probably hide behind the usual "government conspiracy: that's just what I'd expect you to say" argument.

I've had experience of this debating the moon landings with people and at the end of the day you're getting close to religious belief and being unable to argue with "faith". I just hope the misguided nature of Nancy's "faith" becomes readily apparent to the audience, if not to her.

Great to hear you will debate Ms. Lieder. If the CHICKEN thing comes up, just inform her she is the chicken as in CHICKEN LITTLE-"The sky is falling, the sky is falling, Planet X is coming!" I think character issues (W/Nancy) are very much to the point though, since a huge part of her purported 'message' concerns "service to others" and supposed "selflessness". I mean, she has been told repeatedly how her astronomy/predictions are hooey and in response, just channels a pit-bull mentality... However, if she gets hit with direct quotes from her own site that show her true racist and self-serving colors, she freaks!!!! And I mean she gets nasty... Anyway, it could be something to use if she just starts saying she is right over n over n over.
I will be listening, n can't wait to hear ya Phil!

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"Love is the law, love under will."

YOU GO MAN!

I, for one, will try to stay up late and listen to it. I know several people that still think of you all as debunkers and Nancy and Queen Vee (so open minded that she refuses to talk to anyone who doesnt agree with her completely) as knowing more...so it will be nice to hear the voice of reason and common sense vs. a deceptive fruitcake.

Just think if she taught science to school children...*shudder*

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Johnny
Astro Newbie
"I'm not from a coast, I'm just coastin" -Kidneythieves

Phil, if you read this, some suggestions -

Avoid getting bogged down in talking about Ms. Lieder lying. Yes, she did, but the best thing to do is to get it out of the way at the very beginning, e.g., "Before we get started, I'd like to point out that Ms. Lieder has falsely claimed I was 'avoiding' a debate, and said I wasn't 'man enough' to debate a woman. That is patently untrue, and anyone who has listened to this program or read the transcripts can see that for themselves. But that's not important... Let's talk about the nature of the alleged 'Planet X'..."

When she starts the mudslinging, and talking about conspiracies and disinformation agents, simply say "I'm sorry you find it necessary to resort to character assasination. You claim I'm part of a massive, leakproof conspiracy involving the entire U.S. government as well as every professional and amateur astronomer in the world. Well, that's very convenient. But I am a scientist, and I am actually held to some standard of proof." And move on.

Don't fight on her level. She wants to throw out a "sighting" here and an earthquake there, muddying the waters with as much trivia and nonsense as possible. Make an overall assessment of the "images" and point out that earthquakes and weather events come and go, and selectively interpreting the data can be used to support any conclusion. "But scientists don't have that luxury. We have to look at all the data, not just what fits our preconceptions." And move on.

Hammer on the physical impossibility of PX; the fact that the descriptions of it are nothing like a "brown dwarf". Point out that we keep hearing "it's beyond human science", but no one ever seems to be able to explain how that is. Take the high ground as well as the high road. Remember, this is not a debate about something which is actually in doubt. Take to the air with the attitude that you are there to educate, not argue.
Above all, be unfailingly polite, and don't get dragged into discussions about lies, conspiracies, motivations, etc. That's the crank's favorite debating tactic.

NM

I do think that Ms. Lieder's racist views are pertinant to the subject at hand, because perhaps, world 'cleansing' is the motivation behind her desire for the appearance of Planet X. That way she would be rid of all those she considers undesirable, like the people she refers to as "wet backs" in her Jan. 4, 2003 IRC chat log. This is an issue that needs to be addressed, as it is dangerous in addition to being totally ignorant and wrong!

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"Love is the law, love under will."

I just wonder how you debate someone like Nancy. In order to have a debate, you need to have some common ground of agreement, and I'm not sure there is any. Nancy claims that Newtonian physics is wrong, Planet X is visible, the Earth is slowing down, earthquakes are happening at an unusual rate, etc. Any evidence to the contrary just shows that the Establishment is covering up the real facts.

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Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.

That is another reason you have to hit her with her own comments that could not possibly be misconstrued, such as her "wet backs" (JAn 4, 2003 Zetatalk IRC log) comment. How could she justify such a racist remark? Even if she pawns it of on the Zetas that she 'talks' to, it still proves her to be ignorant, bigoted, and encouraging others to be as she, does it not?

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"Love is the law, love under will."

Something I just noticed in all these PX photos...and it is a very telling point.

The artifact that is labeled as PX is not consistently in position in relation to the sun. Its distance varies, as does its azimuth around the sun. It's never in the same place or at the same distance. Now, how does a planet manage to fly around like that?

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"If a tree is cut down in the rainforest, and is used to make paper to print a book, and the book is really bad, and there's nobody that will read it, do you still hear a sucking sound?"
Charlie in Dayton, A.AsC.

Dude, last minute pep talk and suggestions.

Spear her on the "murdering pets for our own good" bit.

Facts trump BS every time.

Sic em!

Should be bloody. I'll try to listen in.

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Valiant Dancer

I have school tommarow but I do indeed plan on getting a whole one hour of sleep and listening to Phil from 2-5 am. It will be really interesting! Good luck!

Good luck, Phil. I don't really expect that any progress will be made with Nancy herself, but if her faithful are listening maybe some of them will wake up.

Your cause is just. You will prevail.