...has just made it to the front page off digg.com. Digg is a very popular and highly trafficked website.

Incredible Photos - The Surface Of The Sun

I know this has been discussed in numerous threads on this forum, but I thought you should all be aware of this. Notice how dissenting opinions and counter-evidence are being moderated down. This is tinfoil hatish, but this was almost certainly a "planted" story where numerous supports got together and voted it to the front page and are sticking around to bury anyone who dissents.

My favorite comment:
"All the evidence they're presenting. . ." As opposed to "all the evidence". Period.

Street smart astrophysics? That's pretty amusing. I assume these guys would have serious issues with quantum physics.

It is reassuring that the blog only has about one entry two months.

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Quantum physics does not prove that the sun is fusion.
Spend some time at the TRACE website(Look at every movie every picture and read every word.).
Here's a good one.
http://trace.lmsal.com/POD/images/arcade_9_nov_2000.gif
Work backwards from the pictures.
Throw away the fusion model for a minute.
The loops are 75 to 100,000km high. The dark structures under the loops are 50,000km high. They are NOT plasma.
Its like one of those hidden object 3D pictures. You have to look for a minute to understand.
This picture is at 171A so the surrounding area is lit by light from the loops. Remember the loop footprints are under the photosphere. The temperature of the surrounding area is lower than 4million degrees(284A) or the 1million degree corona.

Holy smokes!!! The sun has a solid surface!!!!
The STEREO mission will be the final judge.

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Thanks upriver, I'm willing to wait till the STEREO mission has given us this data before continuing this discussion. In the mean time, I'll take a chance and keep working on the presumption that the fusion model of the Sun is correct, and that helioseismology is correct, and that the Sun has no solid surface.

If you want to add something further, here, I'm curious as to what kind of evidence the STEREO mission will provide data that could confirm the solid surface model.

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So what material do you hypothesize would be solid at those temperatures?

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Avatar courtesy of Bunny.

For folks coming in late, others have tried to explain this image to upriver before, but he doesn't seem to be listening.

This image is showing FE IX ion emissions at about 1 million degrees K. Yes, it is a plasma. Everything seen in the image is above the photosphere. There are no "dark structures" under the loops in the image. Dark areas are simply where there aren't FE IX emissions, and these areas could be hotter or cooler. And, of course, there is more than just highly ionized iron in the loops (hydrogen, for instance), but we can't see it in this image because of the 171A filter.

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Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

even if the dark areas were cooler they would be alot hotter then anything on earth.

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Our dysfunctional Similar Threads "feature" may have just gotten it right this time: One of the links is to the "Songs That Never End" thread!

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The bar has been lowered for the promotion of ATM ideas; the bar for the acceptance of ATM ideas must remain high.

I have Similar Threads disabled in my account. It seems I'm missing a lot of fun .

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To the regular visitor of internet bulletin boards it is clear that it's an excellent idea your parents get to choose your real name.

Your observational abilities are lacking.

Explain to me about coronal rain.

""Rain'' in the solar corona. Whenever the heating of the corona is temporarily stopped, the hot material cools down by radiation into space and conduction to the cool footpoints. As it cools, it slides down the magnetic field towards the solar surface. In this TRACE image (taken in the Lyman alpha passband on 29 May 1999) we see material falling down at a temperature of approximately 10,000 degrees, that is a factor of 100 cooler than the hot corona. The matter falls in clumps, showing up along only an occasional loop. In a four-hour interval, shown in this image, much of the field shows coronal rain. This image shows the maximum brightness at any one pixel during that four-hour interval; as a result, it looks like a stroboscope photograph, with particularly bright falling clumps showing up on successive locations as it falls, creating a flashing track. "
http://trace.lmsal.com/POD/TRACEpodarchive3.html

What is the material and where does it land?


Tell me why the buoyant loop model has failed.


Yes, coming from the loops and their footprints.

Dr Paul Bellan loop simulations at Caltech
http://online.itp.ucsb.edu/online/je...lan/oh/97.html
http://online.itp.ucsb.edu/online/jet+disk05/bellan/

That would be everything above the surface.

That is subject to debate which will be settled by STEREO.

WOW!!!

So do you think they are "hotter" than 284A? Or the corona?
These areas look basically the same at 284A as they do at 171A.

So?


As you can see, the nonsensical fusion model has fried his brain.
I encourage anybody to examine the sun with your fusion model programming turned "OFF".


"TRACE 171Å image, showing emission from gas at 1 million degrees, of Active Region 9077 on 19 July 2000, at 23:30UT. The image (rotated over 90 degrees, so North is to the left) shows a filament in the process of lifting off from the surface of the Sun. The dark matter is relatively cool, around 20,000 degrees, while hot kernels and threads around it are at a million degrees or more. From footpoint to peak, this rapidly evolving structure measures 75,000 miles."
http://trace.lmsal.com/POD/images/T1...719_232925.gif

Again, pretty much all of the 171, 192, 284A pictures show the solid surface of the sun. Anything in Lyman or lower is above this surface. EUV and UV are short wavelengths that are more susceptible to opacity effects. Therein lies the rub. I think there is a misunderstanding of the properties of the layer just beneath the photosphere. If the emission layer of the photosphere were very thin it would be solved.

The photosphere is 3D with depth in the sun spots.
http://www.astro.su.se/groups/solar/

You just have to suspend your preconceived notions.



The SECCHI and the IMPACT instruments I think will be the most interesting. IMO. The PLASTIC instrument may solve the CME acceleration problem.

It will give us the ability to actually place features of the sun in 3D space.
It will show us if;
Loop footprints are below the photosphere. The "transition" layer is below the photosphere. That solar moss is actually on the surface at the loop footprints.

The only reason the loops etc., are placed above the photosphere is due to the perceived opacity effects of the fusion model at and below the photosphere. I'm investigating this right now with the TOPS database.
http://www.t4.lanl.gov/cgi-bin/opacity/tops.pl

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Oh brother, there we go again!

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善數, 不用籌策 (shàn shù, bù yòng chóu cè)
He who is good at counting, uses no counting tools
“A good scientist has freed himself of concepts and keeps his mind open to what is”
道德經, 二十七 (dào dé jīng, 27)

Please tell me (Upriver): how much mass is found as plasma above the iron surface? Given a steady mass loss of 10^9 kg/s, how long will this thin atmosphere (as I understand, you mean that everything above and including the photosphere is shut off from the interior) the sun last? Should we see any changes in chromospheric emission on human time scales?

What is the vertical relief shown in these 'images'?

What is the source of 'illumination'?

What is 'g' at this 'surface'?

What are the 'dark areas' on the 'surface' (in these images)?

Never stopped. Nice to see you too.


I'll assume that we are talking about these images.
#1
http://trace.lmsal.com/POD/images/arcade_9_nov_2000.gif

This image of the suns surface is interesting due to the formation in the upper part of the picture.
#2
http://trace.lmsal.com/POD/images/T1...317_114103.gif
I found the same thing in a star birthing region. I included this for old times sake. Big pic.
http://www.esa.int/esa-mmg/mmg.pl?b=...gle=y&start=10

If your asking do I have a calibration for these images, from TRACE, no, I don't.
I know that the loops are from 75,000 to 100,000km. Arcades are about 50,000km high. So I used this as my calibration to infer the heights of features in the pictures. I included these 2 pictures because they are similar but from 2 different angles showing that the dark areas are darker than the light areas and actually have dimension. You could argue that they are hotter but I see no other signs of "heat".

The source of illumination appears to be from multiple places depending on the delta T from the loop beginning. The solar moss at the base of the loops is a constant source of light along with the loop footprints. As the loops evolve you get "kernels"(I believe they are plasma x-pinches) near the bottom, filaments that light up as the loop grows, blobs that crawl up the loop filaments and then the tops brighten. That constant source of 1 million degree illumination only requires 100eV.
The solar moss seems to be a constant surface glow that appears to come from an area that has eroded away compared to a mean surface.

Do you expect me to change it?

20,000 to 50,000km high ridges of solid material that exists between loop footprints.


I think your asking why doesn't the hydrogen run out if the the volume is only that above a solid surface.
It is constantly replenished due to the influx of neutral gas (hydrogen, helium, neon and other trace gases) from outside the solar system. There are 2 main streams that come in from the "front" of the heliosphere. Most of this gets ionized immediately, a portion flows very close to the sun before it gets ionized. There are inflows that transport material to the surface to be synthesized into deuterium and heavier metals. There is evidence of the CNO cycle on the surface.
Local nucleosynthesis.
I would not expect emissions to change within human lifetime except there may be changes in production rate that vary with the solar min and max.
I also expect this model of the sun to be capable of virtually unlimited lifetime vs the fusion models limited lifetime.

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"Only those who attempt the absurd will achieve the impossible." - M. C. Escher

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Are you serious? You do realize that the radius of the Sun is 695,000 km, and that a "ridge" of "solid material" 50,000 km high would subtend an arc of about 50/700*16 arcminutes = 1.1 arcminutes, that is we should see ridges up to 1.1 arcminutes beyond the limb of the Sun. No observation of the disk of the Sun has ever detected any oblateness, much less features towering to this height.

Maybe you meant 20,000 to 50,000 m, or 20 to 50 km?

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The bar has been lowered for the promotion of ATM ideas; the bar for the acceptance of ATM ideas must remain high.

We still have not received any description of how this supposed Bennett Pinch is going to create a sphere of iron at a temperature of 5800 K which remains stable for billions of years, and where the energy comes from which keeps the sun shining.

Time to show us some real calculations upriver.

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善數, 不用籌策 (shàn shù, bù yòng chóu cè)
He who is good at counting, uses no counting tools
“A good scientist has freed himself of concepts and keeps his mind open to what is”
道德經, 二十七 (dào dé jīng, 27)

OK, I actually took some calipers to the image. Attachment 2. The features are about 10,000km high as you can see from the pic assuming that the loops are on the small side(75,000km).

Here is a picture of coronal loops with the earth in it, attachment 1.
I would estimate the features of interest to be 9,000 to 10,000km high.
The original is here.
http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/gsfc/spaces...th/tracecl.htm


I agree. But do you think if the model does not fit together properly that the calculations will work?


Let me go over the general model.
It is already known(in the standard model) that supernovas create a heavy core. That would be a neutron star, which is far denser than a hollow iron sphere. I imagine that takes orders of magnitude more energy to create than a iron sphere.

Q1. But still, is there enough energy in a astrophysical filament to create a solid sphere out of local plasma via plasma pinch? Remember the energy of the whole circuit is available to power this pinch. What is the whole circuit?

From our favorite Wiki;
Neutron Star
"The nuclei become smaller and smaller until the core is reached, by definition the point where they disappear altogether. The exact nature of the superdense matter in the core is still not well understood."

After that they use terms like strange matter and quarks.

So an iron sphere is way within the realm of normal science.



This article in American Scientist talks about our local neighborhood.
As you can see we are heading away from Vela Supernova. I don't necessarily think that the sun was formed by Vela but in the same area. This would be due to the large concentration of filaments in the area.(Large electrical density.) Filaments are the star birthing region. You would have a series of pinches(in TOKAMAK terms; instabilities) that would form a series of iron spheres. If you research the Saturn Theory, within human memory, the planets had a different configuration. Like a string of beads. All was well. Something happened to cause the sun to move(see Planetary Bussard Ramjet.) maybe Vela exploding, and the planets to fall into orbit around the largest body in the chain.

So here's this iron sphere going through space. As you know when a body moves through plasma it forms a double layer sheath better known as a heliosphere.
Here's where the power for the sun comes in. I have thought about several possible models.

1. Because the sun is moving through a plasma, it develops a current across the sun Langmuir probe model.
2. http://www.electric-cosmos.org/sun.htm enough electrons cathode drop model.
3. Resonant power model ala Tesla, resonant with the galactic center .
4. Longitudinal wave model. Esoteric.

So we have 4 ways the sun could be electrically powered.
Depending on which parameter you choose, any of these could last the life of the galaxy. Depending on your willingness to step outside the box we can fit one to our current situation.

The surface of the sun.
Is less than the melting point of iron, in some areas and below the solid surface. Obviously.
If you look at the images, a large part of the surface is glowing, some of it is even vaporized and appears as blobs in the loops. Solar moss is actually our old friend electric discharge machining. So between the arc footprints and the solar moss, the temperature appears higher than the melting point of iron, with filaments and loops that have million degree ions and electrons(100eV).

Here is a TRACE movie. Enjoy.
http://trace.lmsal.com/POD/movies/m171_20001108.mov

Attached Thumbnails

   

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"Only those who attempt the absurd will achieve the impossible." - M. C. Escher

"Freedom is popular." -Ron Paul

So now an image of hot iron ions has become an image of solid loops of some impossible material that can support itself under that gravity. Right. If I take a photo of smoke rising in the air will you declare that to be a solid rod in the sky?

Well, there is the issue that a iron sphere with the sun's diameter would be far more massive than what we measure. So, no, an iron sphere is not within the realm of science.

That's why you mentioned, oh, a year ago or so the idea of an iron shell. And a number of us have asked you to show just how you would keep an iron shell with the sun's mass from immediately buckling and collapsing into an iron sphere a small fraction of the sun's diameter.

We're still waiting for the math that would show you have some idea of the problems involved.

After that, you can cover the math of energy transport methods and actual non-fusion sources of the sun's energy. Something to show that you have some idea of what would be involved with generating that much energy for billions of years, where it would come from, and just how that energy would somehow get to the sun without being rather obvious getting there.

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Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

What is the evidence for this?

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Upriver
first you want us to throw out fusion model of the sun the in latter post you talk about the CNO cycle which is fusion can you make up your mind.

actually the surface of the sun is 5800 k and the melting of iron 1811 k, if the surface of the sun was lower then the melting point of iron it would mean everyone working with iron would be more powerful then the sun.

the reason way there are dark patches under the arcs and loops is because the filter is tuned to see at the wavelengths that these loops emit. If you look at other data from SOHO in H(alpha) filter you do see dark spots but that is only because they are cooler then the hydrogen around them. Surface of the temp being 5800 k and these darks spots are 3000 K still hotter then molten Fe.

Surface of the temp being 5800 k and these darks spots are 3000 K still hotter then molten Fe.

Molten? Iron boils at 2750°C (~3000 k)

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Enter the World of Athran

ok look it up the temperature in the dark spot is closer to 4500 k.

Holy Michael Mozina Batman! What now!

Neutrinos man. Account for the total neutrino flux in all three flavors. Just saying that fusion "could" occur in the corona or elsewhere won't hack it. The standard solar model (fusion based, no solid surface required) matches the observation from SNO and others quite well. How well does the electric sun "model" match. Error bars and statistical significance statements are not optional.

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"If it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be, but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic!" - Tweedledee

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Well while I haven't been able to locate a nice phase diagram for it, from the little I have been able too, Iron, at 4500K and without pressures rating in the GPa would be vapour.

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Howling from the Shadows

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. --- JayUtah

You can't reason an irrational person out of an irrational belief. --- Noclevername

Apollo: The History and the Hoax
Enter the World of Athran

I'm closing this thread. It is not fair to Mozina to leave it open, since he can't defend himself here.

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