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Old 27-December-2006, 05:43 PM
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Default Universal Accelerating Expansion

If you have a spinning disc, the outside spins faster than the inside, the same would go for a ball, imagine a ball spinning away in space. The forces in the center of the ball are zero, and the top and base of the ball spin slowly while the equator spins fast. Now imagine the spinning ball being spun again so that the top and bottom of the ball are being spun as fast as the up and down. Now imagine the ball is not made of a solid rubber but the fabric of the universe.
Now as the universe expands the ball still spins but the circumference of the ball increases. We from the inside would see an accelerating expanding Universe.

There is no need for Dark Energy. The reason for the acceleration of the expanding universe is the same reason that a marble on a record deck gets super accelerated near the edges and only moves slowly when placed near the center.
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Old 27-December-2006, 07:29 PM
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As I understand it, the acceleration associated with expansion is the rate at which galaxies and what not are moving away from each other. Like one of those little sponge critters that grows when you add water to it.

What you are describing sounds like an expanding universe that is spinning. therefore as the circumference gets bigger, the points along the "equator" would speed up (proportionate of distance from center) spin faster than the galactic goodness in the center. But that doesn't account for the acceleration of A away from B and C, and B from A and C and etc. etc.
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Old 27-December-2006, 08:11 PM
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Yes thats right, it's not a 3d sphere its a 4d universe shaped thing. it bears the same relation to the sphere as the sphere does to the disc.
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Old 27-December-2006, 08:28 PM
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Okay then while your point may be correct in a rotating universe, it doesn't seem to explain the expansion of every point away from every other point at an accelerating rate. Altho I don't know that you can show that the universe is rotating anyway, as you can't show what is the "center" of the universe.

I also fail to see the relationship of the "spinning universe" to dark-energy, altho that could be because I'm not very well versed in the theories of dark energy or dark mater, observations of such, and current or proposed experiments of such. so i can't really comment on that part of the claim.
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Old 27-December-2006, 09:49 PM
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ok, the center of the disc is simple, in the sphere anaolgy there is also a center however a 2d inhabitant of the surface of the sphere would never be able to pinpoint the center of the sphere as he cannot use the up down dimension. In this way we 3d beings cannot pinpoint the center of the 4d universe, we do not have the luxury of the 4th dimension to point the way, the universe expands and it is accelerating in that expansion. The accelerating force in the conventional theory is the dark energy. However my theory is that the universe is rotating in the 4th dimension (and maybe the other dimensions aswell) and that provides the acceleration as the in the sphere and disc examples.

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Old 05-January-2007, 03:16 AM
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Okay then while your point may be correct in a rotating universe, it doesn't seem to explain the expansion of every point away from every other point at an accelerating rate.
Your point is well taken. The rotation would not result in proportional expansion within the ball.

Proportional expansion is necessary to make every point inside the ball seem to move away from every other point.

This can occur if the ball is equalizing its own pressure throughout its entire volume as it expands. The equalization is similar to the equalization of pressure within a perfect gas as the container expands.

Since the space of our expanding universe contains energy of some sort, it is the energy in space that is expanding. If this energy had the same characteristic of being able to equalize its pressure across its entire volume as it expands, and if the matter forms within the expanding space and is therefore itself expanding, we get the observed effect.

If this expansion progresses far enough and fast enough we could not detect the leading edge of the sphere. The proportional expansion keeps us from detecting a center.

If the expansion was able to overcome the gravity of matter within the ball, the matter would appear to be expanding at an accelerating rate.
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Old 06-January-2007, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by max8166 View Post
ok, the center of the disc is simple, in the sphere anaolgy there is also a center however a 2d inhabitant of the surface of the sphere would never be able to pinpoint the center of the sphere as he cannot use the up down dimension. In this way we 3d beings cannot pinpoint the center of the 4d universe, we do not have the luxury of the 4th dimension to point the way, the universe expands and it is accelerating in that expansion. The accelerating force in the conventional theory is the dark energy. However my theory is that the universe is rotating in the 4th dimension (and maybe the other dimensions aswell) and that provides the acceleration as the in the sphere and disc examples.
Which axis is it rotating about? What is the rate of rotation (about that axis)?
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Old 07-January-2007, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by max8166 View Post
If you have a spinning disc, the outside spins faster than the inside, the same would go for a ball, imagine a ball spinning away in space. The forces in the center of the ball are zero, and the top and base of the ball spin slowly while the equator spins fast. Now imagine the spinning ball being spun again so that the top and bottom of the ball are being spun as fast as the up and down. Now imagine the ball is not made of a solid rubber but the fabric of the universe.
Now as the universe expands the ball still spins but the circumference of the ball increases. We from the inside would see an accelerating expanding Universe.

There is no need for Dark Energy. The reason for the acceleration of the expanding universe is the same reason that a marble on a record deck gets super accelerated near the edges and only moves slowly when placed near the center.
Feel free to address the actual data (supernovae and the WMAP observations) based on this idea - quantitatively.
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Old 07-January-2007, 03:33 PM
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A spinning ball creates a maximum centrifugal force on its equator and it may balance a gravity. The maximum gravitational force is from its pole than. This shows a rotating Kerr Black Hole. its singularity is a ring.
Our Universe expands uniformly (1% of the flatness) and even accelerate uniformly in all directions.
It is like a boiled water. There are Cosmic Void bulbs and moving galaxies in the Galaxy Clusters.
The boiled water expands uniformly by a supply of the energy from outside.
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Old 07-January-2007, 11:00 PM
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Which axis is it rotating about? What is the rate of rotation (about that axis)?
As I said, "my theory is that the universe is rotating in the 4th dimension (and maybe the other dimensions aswell)"
Every dimension has it's own axis. {although you can only rotate a ball (in 3D space) on 2 axis, the third axis becomes irrelevant, as it would be a combination of the other two vectors.}
As the Universe is by defintion everything, then you cannot measure a speed of rotation, speed is a measurment of distance travelled against some marker, as there is no marker it would be differcult to measure a speed, also a rotation rate would also imply that time was relevent outside the Universe which by most theories it is not.
However if there was a decrease in the rate of expansion acceleration on a ongoing basis you may be able to infer that the mass of the universe was slowing down the rotation rate as more energy is required as the universe expands. {This should be dependant on the mass of the universe and the momentum of the fabric of spacetime}

So (for example) if you could give a figure for the expansion rate of the universe which at time A was 100 m/s2 and time B was 150 m/s2 and at time C was 199 m/s2 {assuming that A,B and C were equal times apart} then you would know that mass was affecting the rotation period within the Universe.

However as Einstein proves in Special Relativity Time and Space are interelated so A,B and C become dependant on position as well as time, and so become even more differcult to calculate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Relativity
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Old 07-January-2007, 11:17 PM
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Feel free to address the actual data (supernovae and the WMAP observations) based on this idea - quantitatively.
Can you provide a link to these data. Thanks.

Can you express how quantitatively you would like (example).

This is an AGM theory, it's a speculation of how could the Universe be contantly accelerating in it's expansion. The mainstream reason is Dark Energy Which is a hypothetical form of energy that permeates all of space and yet cannot be measured found or explained in real terms.
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Old 08-January-2007, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by max8166 View Post
Can you provide a link to these data. Thanks.

Can you express how quantitatively you would like (example).
For starters, I'd like to see how your model explains the observed relationship between distance and redshift for supernovae. You could derive a formula from your model and show how that formula matches the data, or you could come up with numerical determinations of that relationship, and again show how that matches the data.

For data about supernovae, look e. g. at these papers:
* A. G. Riess et al., Observational Evidence from Supernovae for an Accelerating Universe and a Cosmological Constant, Astron. J. 116 (1998) 1009-1038 (astro-ph/9805201)
* J. L. Tonry et al., Cosmological Results from High-z Supernovae, Astrophys. J. 594 (2003) 1 (astro-ph/0305008)
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Old 08-January-2007, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by max8166 View Post
As I said, "my theory is that the universe is rotating in the 4th dimension (and maybe the other dimensions aswell)"
Every dimension has it's own axis. {although you can only rotate a ball (in 3D space) on 2 axis, the third axis becomes irrelevant, as it would be a combination of the other two vectors.}
As the Universe is by defintion everything, then you cannot measure a speed of rotation, speed is a measurment of distance travelled against some marker, as there is no marker it would be differcult to measure a speed, also a rotation rate would also imply that time was relevent outside the Universe which by most theories it is not.
However if there was a decrease in the rate of expansion acceleration on a ongoing basis you may be able to infer that the mass of the universe was slowing down the rotation rate as more energy is required as the universe expands. {This should be dependant on the mass of the universe and the momentum of the fabric of spacetime}

So (for example) if you could give a figure for the expansion rate of the universe which at time A was 100 m/s2 and time B was 150 m/s2 and at time C was 199 m/s2 {assuming that A,B and C were equal times apart} then you would know that mass was affecting the rotation period within the Universe.

However as Einstein proves in Special Relativity Time and Space are interelated so A,B and C become dependant on position as well as time, and so become even more differcult to calculate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Relativity
Unless I have seriously misunderstood your idea (which I freely admit is entirely possible), my question was very straightforward and should have a very straightforward answer.

"Rotation" is a simple concept; the number of dimensions is irrelevant (once you get above 1) - the "axis of rotation" is well-defined, whether the rotation is happening in 2D, 3D, 4D, ....

Ditto 'rate of rotation' ...

Now what any 4D (or 5D, or ..) rotation might look like to us, here in our 3D (or 4D) universe, well, that's a separate question (and one I may get to, once you've cleared up the simply stuff, such as my probable misunderstanding of your idea).
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Old 16-January-2007, 01:56 AM
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Unless I have seriously misunderstood your idea (which I freely admit is entirely possible), my question was very straightforward and should have a very straightforward answer.

"Rotation" is a simple concept; the number of dimensions is irrelevant (once you get above 1) - the "axis of rotation" is well-defined, whether the rotation is happening in 2D, 3D, 4D, ....
The rotation would have it's center of axis at the singularity of the big bang, it would rotate in x,y and z planes.
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'rate of rotation' ...

Now what any 4D (or 5D, or ..) rotation might look like to us, here in our 3D (or 4D) universe, well, that's a separate question (and one I may get to, once you've cleared up the simply stuff, such as my probable misunderstanding of your idea).
08-January-2007 08:55 AM
The rate of rotation would be once every flop
A flop of course bears no relation to the time within the universe but would be a rotation rate (if you really require one)
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Old 16-January-2007, 02:45 PM
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There is no need for Dark Energy. The reason for the acceleration of the expanding universe is the same reason that a marble on a record deck gets super accelerated near the edges and only moves slowly when placed near the center.
If this is true, then the center should not expand. Well, there is no center in the universe, ie. any point could be the center, and we see expansion everywhere.

DE could be the spacetime itself. More DE --> more spacetime --> more DE etc ....
A snowball effect, hence accelerating expansion.
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Old 17-January-2007, 05:09 PM
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Question what's the shape of spacetime ?? ..........

Our observation is from WITHIN the spacetime.
If one could make observation from OUTSIDE spacetime, what will be the shape of the universe ? spherical, elliptical, flat ??
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