This isn't a troll, gang; it's an honest concern. The title of this thread refers to the last page of George Orwell's "Animal Farm," and the phrase is a metaphor for becoming the very thing which you fight against.

I keep hearing about the "thousands" of people whose lives were ruined by this whole thing; where are they? Has anyone here actually talked to one? Or are the "Victims of Planet X" going to be the next hoax, this one perpetuated by the Bad Astronomer and Friends? C'mon, gang! You say these victims exist? Let's have some numbers!

So far, the worst *credible* story I've heard is that the Japanese cult almost literally folded their tents and went home. How many of their lives were "ruined"? How many of them suffered more than embarrassment and temporary financial or social setback? How many were harmed in ways that they were emotionally unable to handle?

BTW, it may well be that those who still hold on to Planet X are doing so as a way to gradually depressurize so that they can, finally, let go. However, I've seen several would-be messiahs here on this board who want to force these sad *******s to go cold turkey, regardless of whether they are emotionally ready for it. Who will be blamed for any harm that then results?

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Beady's Corollary to Occam's Razor: "The likeliest explanation of any phenomenon is almost always the most boring."

Animal Farm is a great book. But I don't see how we are becoming like Napoleon. How is the fact that there is a chance that there are many, many people out there who may have ruined their lived over this Planet X garbage proof that we are turning into ZetaTalk?

True, maybe the numbers are exaggerated a bit. But as far as I can see, we are not attempting to "force" people who might believe in Planet X to change their minds, we are merely presenting them with facts that cut through the Planet X theory like a hot knife through butter, and are allowing them to form their own conclusions. And, the chances that there are at least a few people out there who drastically changed their lives based on Nancy's claims is great. Remember May 5, 2000?

Finally, I just don't see how we are turning into ZetaTalk. ZetaTalk presents people with BS facts which are based on one old woman's ideas. We present people with hard scientific facts which are based on years and years of research. ZetaTalk tells people to kill their pets. We tell people to feed their pets. ZetaTalk uses completely bogus pictures to attempt to revive the dying Planet X hoax, and have used completely bogus pictures in the past to push their own claims. We use our own eyes to look up into the sky when someone supposedly photographs Planet X, and we use our knowledge of astronomy and photography to debunk each one of those pictures that are on ZetaTalk. Lastly, ZetaTalk commands people to go to a "safe place". We tell people that if something like that was coming (which it isn't), no place on earth would be safe.

There is always a risk that something like this can become a self-serving purpose. I know I'll be glad when all this is over. I'm gonna hang around BABB anyway. The people here just seem to nice to give up cold turkey.

But the thing is: if someone is holding on, then they are not giving it up. I know.. I'm trying to quit smoking.

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Quidquid Latinae dictum sit, altum viditur.

Here's the trouble. Those who stubbornly hold on to PX are still posting their hysteria to Godlike, etc, and possibly worrying new people into the fold. Even if it's unwitting, it has to stop.

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"My show's not a comedy; it's a horredy" - Zorak

Did you listen to yourself as you wrote that? "The fact that there is a chance"? That is my point, exactly! Your whole argument is based on innuendo and supposition, presented as fact. If you expect me to believe it's happening, give me facts unaccompanied by chances.

How big is "a bit"? Give me numbers. I don't ask that they be absolute, but I demand that they be based on something concrete.

You, or many here, are ridiculing the hell out of them and attemptimg to force them to change through peer pressure, a force far more powerful than reason and logic. I see no substantial difference between that and fear-mongering.

We're dealing with chances again, extrapolated from an unrelated incident. And yes, I do remember 5/5/00; ISTR pointing out the possible parallel early-on after I came to these boards, and was assured there was no parallel, after all.

Have you considered the possibility, the chance, if you will, that that is part of the problem?

So, you admit that, having failed to cure them of their delusion, you then seek to rob them of all hope within that delusion? I presume that you also claim that this is not a harmful thing to attempt?

And, btw, do you, or anyone else here, have any educational, vocational or professional credentials which attest to your ability to treat delusions over the internet?

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Beady's Corollary to Occam's Razor: "The likeliest explanation of any phenomenon is almost always the most boring."

This evades my question: How much *real* harm has been suffered or caused by the Planet-X believers? I've heard rumors, now it's time for facts.

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Beady's Corollary to Occam's Razor: "The likeliest explanation of any phenomenon is almost always the most boring."

Numbers you ask? The only numbers we can offer are the numerus posts here from indiviuals asking for some sound advice and information about what they are fearing and don't understand.

There are plenty of examples of cults and the effects they have on people. Just within this humble board people have told us that their relatives have sold up and moved to "safe zones" and asked us for information that they could use to convince their relatives of the hoax.

the cost of nancy and the PX hoax will never fully be counted. But as long as there are people who try to profit from the general public using psydo-science nonsense, we will be here to expose them ruthlessly.

there is no justification that the PX issue was just a bit of fun, nancy and her drones have tried to sway as many people into believeing them. I would love to see this thread fade away, but as long as people are posting questions to calm their fears we will continue to answer them and support the effort towards critical thinking..

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Man can't even create a simple worm, but can create gods by the dozen.

Even Beethoven had his critics..

e=mc2 ( energy=morning coffee x 2)

if you, as I did, lurk on the tt-w boards, you'd have seen a long parade of mentally unstable people driven to the edge of sanity and beyond by nancy's fantasy. some of these people admitted to quitting their jobs and uprooting their families to move to a "safe place".

if you like watching emotional breakdowns, it was quite a show. although, frankly, I don't give a flying boxcar about these people, it is quite obvious that something has gone very wrong in their lives. whether nancy caused it or aggravated it, its undeniable.

its unlikely that anyone will ever call nancy to account for her misconduct (at least in this world) because American federal and state governments are traditionally reluctant to invade issues of freedom of religion and freedom of speech.

but you're either deluding yourself or a nancyboy apologist if you think she hasn't been a pestilence.

OK, what about the people who made it to this board at all? Kitten's ulcer? Skywatcher's constant questions?

The rest of them, in their "safe places" somewhere, would certainly be harder to count, but I'll attempt to get on it.

Oh, and "would-be messiahs"? That's a bit dramatic. I think that's why I jumped on your post. It seems somewhat inflammatory of you to have said that, because we certainly never used language like that. What are you about?

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"My show's not a comedy; it's a horredy" - Zorak

beady, the fact that you can present ideas like this at all and have them considered seriously proves that we are not like Zetatalk. Here, you are allowed to express your opinion, even if it doesn't match the opinion of everyone else.

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Quaeso quousque humi defixa tua mens erit? Nonne aspicis, quae in templa veneris?

here here, well put.

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Man can't even create a simple worm, but can create gods by the dozen.

Even Beethoven had his critics..

e=mc2 ( energy=morning coffee x 2)

Personally I have a friend who was looking into moving to a safe spot and bought copper pipe so he could distill water after the floods came.
I also believe several of the posters here who explained how either they or thier significent other were very worried about it.
That's only a few people. But for me, that's enough. Although I wish everone well, it's only the people I have some interaction with that I hope to personally give some benifit too.

Besides it's fun here.

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I must not PX. PX is the mind-killer. I will face my PX. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the PX has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

Beady, I don't know what your problem is. It sounds like someone peed in your corn flakes. There might be negligable harm caused by PX believers in statisitcal numbers "out there" .. I hope that's the case. I don't think "proving the damage" should become an issue in this forum. I know of certain members who frequent this forum that DID suffer and this forum helped 'em out... that was good to see, whether it fits into YOUR definition of harm or not. As far as your contention that members use peer pressure, ridicule to debunk PX .... except for a couple exceptions, that is not the case. Most posters here have the patience of Job, especially when it comes to one or two of the same "hey look at this" members that post here constantly. I think when this forum is no longer relavent the BA will do what he has to do, in the meantime it's here, and people post WHAT THEY THINK to it. Not everyone here feels like you do, and most seem much better at getting their point across without sounding like a pompous windbag

No it's not. We're not ZetaTalk. You're whole argument is based on the fact that we can't present actual statistics on the amount of people who were affected by ZetaTalk, and are using fear and lies to force people to believe us. But, like people before have said, they have known people who were considering going into hiding due to this. But, we also know from personal experience the stress and worry that cults like ZetaTalk can cause, and can understand why people would go into hiding and recognize the fact that the chance (I know, you hate that word) that some of the population would go into hiding is great. I admit, we do not have exact numbers. But sometimes, numbers is not the only evidence.

We are? Prove it. The only time we get irritated with people is when they troll, or are like skywatcher/bmpbmp and keep posting thread after thread asking "what is this is it planet x" (though he recently apologized for it, and I accept his apologies).

Planet X and 5/5/00 are not unrelated. In fact, if you do research on both of them, you will discover that the two managed to survive on one thing: manipulating common people with pages and pages of garbage that looks semi-real in order to further the hoaxers' own stupid assumptions that are not at all based on scientific fact. Oh, and money. The money thing was a big part of that, as it is with PX.

Yes, after checking out this thread. I don't see it happening to this board. I really don't know what you assume you're seeing. You know what I see? I see this board slowly dying because the whole Planet X bit is slowly dying.

You're leaving out one minor fact: about 100% of the time, we SUCCEED in curing them of their delusion. In fact, more than half of the people on this board used to be afraid of Planet X (including myself, I admit) before stumbling upon this board. Here's what usually happens:

1. Person arrives, explains fears, asks for evidence to help quell their fears.
2. We present them with many, many facts, or direct them to a site which will be able to eliminate their fears rather effectively.
3. Person is happy to no longer be afraid of PX, decides to stick around for a while as they believe this is a friendly board to stay at.

If we were turning into ZetaTalk, and we were ridiculing the hell out of them, they wouldn't decide to stay. For the record, we have never forced someone to stop believing, or forced them to quit cold turkey. We do what I said: Present them with facts and allow them to form their own conclusions.

I admit that I myself do not possess any sort of credentials, as I am only 15. Some people here, however, have some credentials.

Bottom line, we're not attempting to use fear like ZetaTalk does. in IRC chats, PalTalk rooms, anything you can think of, ZetaTalk followers continue to ban people for merely stating that they don't believe in Planet X. We do nothing of the sort. We do the exact opposite (ask them why they believe, present them with numerous facts which debunk Planet X, and have a civilized argument). Until we begin to ban people for stating their opinions, we're not ZetaTalk.

What Surpreme Canuck and planethollywood previously said sums it up in a nutshell.

If I sound like an *** while you were reading this, sorry. I'm simply trying to show you why I don't believe we are turning into ZetaTalk.

Largely-unsubstantiated claims of damage, and fears of damage, have been made in this forum; the validity of these claims most certainly should be made an issue. It isn't just the Planet-Xers who are accountable. People here have been accusing Nancy and Co. of causing physical and financial damage; I believe "ruining people's lives" is a favorite phrase. I want to know what the evidence is that this is actually happening, that people's lives have actually been ruined.

I'm not disputing that. Matter of fact, I'm not disputing anything. I'm questioning.

Among the things I question is whether someone can espouse that people's lives have been ruined, and then justify the espousal by claiming that anxiety fits the definition of "ruin." I also question whether "ruin" includes financial or any other kind of setback from which a person can recover. The person who quit his job can get another; the person who sunk all his funds into survival gear can get more money, etc. If you can recover, then how have you been "ruined"?

So, you agree that my contention is demonstrably true; what we disagree on is the degree to which it has been happening.

If calling you to account for yourself opens me to accusations of pomposity, I plead guilty. Being skeptical of the Planet-Xers does not obligate me to unquestioningly buy into all the arguments of the opposition, no matter how closely aligned with them I may be.

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Beady's Corollary to Occam's Razor: "The likeliest explanation of any phenomenon is almost always the most boring."

I have received hundreds of emails about Planet X over the past year or so. Of these, most are supportive of what I have been doing. Also of these, a few have told me first-hand stories of loved ones being scared, or moving, or going to great lengths to provide a shelter for this non-event. I know of many people-- some of whom are kids, teenagers-- who were scared silly by Nancy Lieder. There are still quite a few who are going to IRC sessions to try to get more information on this, even though it is now June, and it's clear that Nancy was wrong, wrong, wrong.

I cannot provide you with names, of course, since that is a violation of privacy. And, of course, I could be making this up. Even providing email messages without the headers and with the names changed wouldn't help, as you could accuse me of making it up.

But why would I bother? As some sort of way of making up a need for me to do all this? I would love for all this to go away. Love it. There isn't a single day that I am not feeling some sort of strong emotion about this garbage-- anger, sadness, frustration. I would like nothing more than for it to have never been an issue.

I understand your position, but unfortunately you are wrong. There are lots of people who were scared out there, and many still are.

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Phil Plait
The Bad Astronomer
http://www.badastronomy.com
badastro@badastronomy.com

Worked for me... The simple thing is that the advice given to me on this board has allowed me to go and find out more about the situation, and has allowed me to think for myself.

The people on this board have provided information in a clear, uncomplicated way and this has allowed me to see for myself, to examine the proof set out before me and to make my own judgement. I can see the words of these people as truth as it is there before my eyes. I can read about it, think about it, put things into practise to come to my own conclusions. This board has promoted a safe, healthy, friendly and helpful environment in which to discuss things.

Nancy on the other hand has done nothing but promote hysteria. She provides evidence in a complicated, meddled together way. She uses so many different examples of things happening to try and prove what she is saying is real and many times, cannot even get things right. This is not the words of a scientist, or even of a human being who has her facts straight. She is not a very compassionate person, rarely answers questions in a straight way, avoids topics if challenged and even goes off on strange tangents to try and prove her case. She gets angry and wishes the worst on people who even questions her when all these people wanted was information. Her website is a mish mash of paranoia and science fiction mixed with bad science.

In my mind which would I rather go to for information.... Obviously here. The people on this board (many of whom have ACTUAL scientific background of some sort, be it physics, chemistry, meterology, astronomy etc) can offer answers. They know what they are talking about.

I know who I can trust.

Then estimate it. But, more importantly, give me the data from which you draw your estimate.

I don't dispute that. I do question that anyone's life has been ruined, harmed, or whatever, because of Planet X. I also grant the possibility, even probability, that a few people were unstable enough to have been pushed over the edge; however, I also believe these people were probably unstable enough that they were beyond help from the very start.

I submit that critical thinking includes being skeptical of the critics.

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Beady's Corollary to Occam's Razor: "The likeliest explanation of any phenomenon is almost always the most boring."

Phil, I am *not* accusing you of inventing anything. I am merely questioning the seemingly popular contention that the Planet-X crap has caused "damage." If you insist that anxiety is damage then I will agree, but only within the boundary of your insistence.

People who lost or gave up jobs can find other jobs; people who lost or wasted money can earn more. So far, I have only heard of one marriage breakup caused by Planet X, and one death. The marriage was Nancy's, and the death was Nancy's dog. The only evidence we have for either event is Nancy's say-so; if we can't rust her word on any other topic, why can we trust it on this one? Is there outside confirmation that either event took place?

Again, I don't dispute that a lot of people were scared, but does that constitute "harm"? A favorite metaphor arund here is yelling "Fire" in a crowded theater. The person who does the yelling should definitely be horsewhipped, regardless. However, if no one gets up and runs for the exit, I hold that it is highly improper to accuse that person of manslaughter (assuming that would be the proper charge if someone were to be killed in a panicy mass exit). I figure it's fair to accuse Nancy of incitement, but I'm still awaiting evidence that actual harm has been done because of that incitement.

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Beady's Corollary to Occam's Razor: "The likeliest explanation of any phenomenon is almost always the most boring."

I, for one, find this question to be irrelevant. It was never the intention of this forum to count victims, rather it exists to support and educate them. Even if there are only a scant few affected by this scare, this forum offers a place of enlightenment and support for them.

Personally, I have witnessed families maxing out their credit cards buying supplies, while in line at my local grocery store. I also have a friend whose life has been put on hold for the better part of 3 months now. In that time, he’s lost his job, his car, maxed out his credit cards, and has yet to visit his first nephew born in March. No, he’s not a stupid person, he suffers from phobias and panic attacks.

We will never know the true numbers of those affected, and that is not important. What is important, BA made sure these people have a place to educate themselves with science fact, not science fiction. That’s the bottom line.

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"There is no greater illusion than fear. Whoever can see through all fear will always be safe. " --Lao-Tsu

Why do you question this? Is it just because your life hasnt been ruined? My life was put on hold for a good 6-8 months because of this crap. I was worried stupidly before I found this board. I couldnt sleep, I was depressed, I felt ill all the time. I did think about suicide at my lowest point as drowning is one of my biggest fears... I would rather have taken my own life than drown. You cannot say this as you clearly do not understand.

I do hope that no one was unstable enough to be pushed over the edge. But instability is not the only factor at work here. Fear is a big player in this game... if not the main contender. My fears were big enough to make me think about it. I am as normal and as healthy as the next person... you are unqualifed to make the above statement. In fact I think that it is quite a dismissing statement to make.

Not everyone who commits suicide or thinks about it or is depressed or is scared is beyond help.... I have been helped by my friends on this board and my friends outside this board. Particularly my boyfriend. I am one of the lucky ones.

Well sadly you may never get it... Mainly because when it comes to things like this, most people are too embarassed to say that they were duped into doing things. That they fell for this womans words. Humans are proud people. Would you stand up in a crowded room and say that you had fallen for it?

I on the other hand would. I have been in hospital over this. Stress caused an ulcer. A PAINFUL ULCER. There here is proof of one person. I can stand up and say it because I would rather face the embarasment of saying that I was pulled into this crap and help people, than keep my mouth shut and watch people suffer.

and I submit that your line of reasoning is a strawman argument made as a pretext for uncritical support of nancy.

nancy isn't being sued by anyone or indicted for criminal activity, but if she were, I'd bet the farm that people who did fall for nancy's lies would be found and would come forward to testify (that means, in a court of law and under oath, a forum which has no resemblance to an internet message board). I suspect we could find enough economic harm to bankrupt her or put her behind bars, but, as I noted somewhere else, this is unlikely given the protection that religion and speech have.

but these boards are not a courthouse for an unlikely trial, so demanding proof of her harm when you know full well that this is not the place for such proof is a strawman argument. it reveals more of your agenda as a nancyboi and zeta apologist than it does for any purported search for the accounting of her misdeeds.

given your statements, do you follow them to their logical end and maintain that nancy hurt no one and did nothing morally or legally wrong?

don't be a zetadrone and evade the question.

Oh, it’s very easy to take this position now that it’s June 1st, where were you a year ago when it was still very uncertain what people might do? Phil was right here. I don’t know what your definition of harm is, but people wrecking their lives, certainly fits my definition of harm.

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"There is no greater illusion than fear. Whoever can see through all fear will always be safe. " --Lao-Tsu

Nevertheless, these claims have been made and I am asking that they be substantiated. I am not going to unquestioningly accept these claims merely because I otherwise agree with the person making them.

Does this count as "harm"? How do you know that they were maxing out their cards? Sounds to me like, in this particular instance, the worst thing that will happen is that they'll have to dig themselves out of a financial hole.

Are you making the claim that these phobias and attacks were caused by Planet X? Or are they part of his overall condition, and Planet X is just one more aggravation?

If the numbers are unimportant, then so is the event which causes them.

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Beady's Corollary to Occam's Razor: "The likeliest explanation of any phenomenon is almost always the most boring."

Yes, like people who off themselves, fearing the end of the world, are actually going to leave notes. To be honest, that's a very ignorant question.

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"There is no greater illusion than fear. Whoever can see through all fear will always be safe. " --Lao-Tsu

maybe the question should be how much real harm and suffering has been averted by people coming to this board to find out the truth?

You seem like a very bitter person... Why are you questioning people who have helped others over come something?

Having unneeded worry, fear, and stress in your life is definitely harm. In fact, inflicting these sorts of things on someone else can make you liable for damages in a court.

I got an email from someone whose friend has spent over a million dollars (!) on a shelter from Planet X. That money was arguably wasted. I have read about at least one friendship that was destroyed from this as well. The teenagers worried probably had a direct impact on their school work and social life (I recall a similar circumstance back in the 80s, when a friend of mine broke down in tears about a planetary alignment that was supposed to destroy the Earth).

Are you looking for people who rioted, burned, looted? Those might be physically harmful, but that's not the only way to induce harm. There has been harm aplenty caused by this nonsense.

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Phil Plait
The Bad Astronomer
http://www.badastronomy.com
badastro@badastronomy.com

Beady just likes to debate. It's easy to critic/debate, line by line, anyone's posts (I'm kinda good at debating myself, but I'll spare everyone). He/she has flaws in their presention. Beady keeps asking for statistical proof of Nancy's "harm" as though we run a Gallop pool from here & He/she disagrees with my assertion that most PX debunkers are professional, in scope anyway, when the evidence is right here! I didn't see any statistical corollary backing up Beady's claim to the contrary. I think we shouldn't get sucked into a tit-for-tat exchange with Beady. I think he/she could get their point across without the colorful language & narrow definitions but hey .. it's his/her opinion not ours. Let's see if this poster wants to disect/debate BA's post. I kinda doubt it.

PS Good luck with quitting smoking Fluffis, I'm fighting that demon as well

Dunno about a year ago, but I started a thread on that very question right after registering here, called "Serious Question about May 16." Go ahead, look it up. IIRC, I was assured there would be no serious damage. Now, however, people are telling me there was all kinds of serious damage; they're just not telling me what it was, or how much of it there was. OTOH, they do appear mildly upset that I'm asking questions.

I define "harm," "wrecking their lives," and other similar terms, as suffering unfortunate consequences from which someone cannot recover. I have yet to hear of anyone at all suffering consequences from which they are unable to recover. I suppose that someone must have, but I have heard nothing concrete. Have you?

BTW, what's your definition of harm? I showed you mine, now you show me yours.

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Beady's Corollary to Occam's Razor: "The likeliest explanation of any phenomenon is almost always the most boring."