The Infinite Reach of Gravity

This thread adds content about the infinite reach of gravity to the ideas conveyed on my previous thread about the
Infinite Spongy Universe (ISU). On that thread here is a good point to start and go forward to find a summary of the ISU which includes the cause of gravity and a
Glossary of terms used to discuss the ISU or you can go to post #2 of this thread to get a recap.

The explanation of why and how the reach of gravity is infinite is covered in the third post on this new thread.

The second post lists the events from the referenced ISU thread conveniently recapped and sequenced for you right up to the point where the new content is to be added.

The rest of this post addresses the mainstream position, “we can’t know so why speculate” response that makes discussions of the ISU “before and beyond” the big bang an ATM topic.

The ISU is about empty space that has always existed and has never been empty. That sounds like a paradox but it simply means that space itself can be empty, but it is not. It contains energy referred to as the energy density of space.

It is inescapable that reasoned and responsible speculation about pre-conditions to the big bang takes place. I am conducting such a process when I talk about the ISU. To some, a little speculation is just as bad as speculation about little green men. The ISU presentation is reasoned and responsible speculation about what the universe could be like if it was composed solely of infinitesimal indestructible elementary energy particles that have always existed.

There is a proposed testable aspect of the EEP discussed near the end of the referenced ISU thread. Such a test, if devised and successful would bring the ISU into the realm of science. Acceptance still awaits a repeatable test proving the existence of the unifying particle and a peer reviewed paper about how that particle accounts for the energy density fluctuations that characterize the Infinite Spongy Universe.

That post lead to a thread about “Isolating Protons” which ended with this post: http://www.bautforum.com/showpost.php?p=953526&postcount=10

A test may very well be devised, just probably not in my lifetime. The expected discovery of the unifying particles that make up the sole content the ISU could be detected by such a test.

See post #2 for a recap of the sequence of events that characterize the ISU and lead to the point where content about the infinite reach of gravity will be added.

Post #2

This post lists the events from the referenced ISU thread conveniently recapped and sequenced for you right up to the point where the new content is to be added.

To grasp the ISU you need to follow the rational and responsible thought process conveyed in the following sequence.

In BBT there was hot, high energy plasma sometimes referred to as a “soup” of matter and energy that expanded from some unmentioned but implied extremely dense origin, a singularity. BBT uses the plasma as the source of “matter”, i.e. in BBT matter comes from the plasma. In the ISU which is composed only of unifying energy particles, matter forms from those particles when the ideal energy density is reached and is negated back to unifying particles when energy density gets too high for matter to exist. The negation of matter back into EEPs in the crunch marks the beginning of a huge energy density fluctuation that is equivalent to the Big Bang in BBT.

The nature of the unifying particle that makes up the energy density of space in the ISU is not fully appreciated in BBT. The ISU predicts the existence of a greater universe within which the event occurs, i.e. there is a “before and beyond” the big bang.

Some, if not most professionals say we have a perfectly good working theory to account for time and matter from the instant after the big event until now, but glaring in their absence are the source and cause of the big bang, the cause of gravity, the cause of galactic structure, and the cause of accelerating expansion. In addition, the best end result in BBT is complete entropy, a one time event that just hasn’t happened yet, and never will in the ISU.

All of that is solved in the ISU by the existence of the simple pulsing unifying particle, the elementary energy particle (EEP).

The EEP forms the perfect background of the universe by occupying all space.

Space is infinite and the greater universe encompasses all space.

All space contains EEPs.

The universe is composed of only EEPs.

EEPs are indestructible and have always existed.

The number of EEPs in any volume of space makes up the energy density of that space (energy divided by volume equals energy density).

The energy density of a volume of space can fluctuate.

Matter forms when there is just the right energy density in a volume of space.

Matter is composed of EEPs and forms from the energy density of space.

The average energy density of space in the greater universe is high enough that some EEPs must be in the form of matter at all times.

The greater universe is characterized by a balance between energy density of space and the matter that forms from the energy density of space.

The fluctuations in the energy density of space occur because matter forms and gets negated back to energy density of space in a process of “energy to matter to energy” that takes place in “finite arenas” of space.

Gravity is matter dependent and gravity only exists because matter exists.

Gravity causes matter to attract matter giving matter its mass.

When matter forms gravity begins and masses are attracted to each other.

All of the matter in the universe would collapse into a big crunch if it wasn’t for the critical capacity of a big crunch that causes finite arenas of energy and matter to form and then to burst.

Bursting big crunches keep the entire universe from collapsing under its own gravity.

EEPs cause the crunches to burst as they are negated from the matter in the crunch under the compression of gravity that is so great that matter cannot exist and the EEPs emerge as the crunch releases a ball of nearly infinite energy density into surrounding space.

Energy density of space is self regulating and as the nearly infinite energy density emerges it expands into the lower energy density of the space surrounding the crunch.

Since crunches are finite due to critical capacity and since the greater universe and the energy in the greater universe is infinite there are an infinite number of arenas where finite crunches are forming and bursting at any point in time.

Our observable universe is one of those bursts; one of the infinite number of expanding bursts that exist across the greater universe at all times, each in its own arena.

All bursts expand, and as they expand the energy density of the ball of high energy density is eventually reduced to the point that there is just the right energy density across that arena or expanding volume of space for matter to form.

Matter forms abundantly and almost simultaneously across the entire volume of each expanding arena.

Our expanding universe is no different and matter formation in our observable universe has occurred and progressed to the current point where galaxies are scattered across the entire expanse.

Galaxies form in the expanding volume of energy density in space and are separated from each other over time as the expansion progresses.

The expansion caused by the equalization of the energy density of the burst with the energy density of the greater universe causes galaxies to all appear to be moving away from each other regardless of the position of the observer within the expanding arena.

EEPs pulse by expanding and contracting under there own perpetual power.

When the ideal energy density exists for matter formation, the pulsing is fully expressed and each pulse causes a tiny fluctuation of energy density associated with the space that each individual EEP occupies.

The fluctuation is a pulse of low energy density followed by a pulse of high energy density in a continual repetition as the EEP expands and contracts.

The ideal energy density of pulsing EEPs in space permits EEPs to join together and pulse alternately in the same space forming a group.

The bigger the group of joined EEPs the bigger the low energy density that surrounds them as space is vacated around the group when the EEPs join and pulse in the same space.

The low energy density surrounding the growing group attracts more EEPs into the low energy density zone surrounding the grouping.

This swarming of the forming group by EEPs results in the first stable stage of matter formation when these groupings achieve a stable vibration.

The vibration is the result of the pulses of the individual EEPs joined in the grouping.

The stable particle comprises a proton that now has a particular vibration that the swarming EEPs cannot penetrate.

The proton is surrounded by a very nice low energy density zone when it forms.

The zone forms as a substantial volume of space in the perfect background has contributed EEPs to the now relatively small space occupied by the proton.

The vacated space comprises the low energy density zone surrounding the proton.

EEPs continue to swarm the low energy density zone surrounding the proton because they are continually trying to equalize the energy density of contiguous space, i.e. spread out evenly in the perfect background including the zone.

An electron cloud forms from a finite number of those EEPs in the low energy density zone surrounding the proton.

The electron underneath the “weight” of the continuing swarm of EEPs reaches capacity and sloughs excess EEPs in the form of a photon like a little bullet forced out of the cloud at the speed of light.

The hydrogen atom now exits and hydrogen atoms make up all of the matter and mass in the entire universe at this early stage of matter formation.

At this stage our expanding universe is an isotropic and homogeneous mass of hydrogen atoms that are all attracted to each other by their low energy density zones.

The low energy density zones around each atom are perpetuated by the swarming of EEPs and the sloughing of EEPs in the form of photons.

The cause of gravity is this flow of EEPs into mass and out of mass as photons which perpetuate the low energy density zones.

Gravity is at work and causes great masses of hydrogen atoms to form.

As hydrogen atoms combine due to this gravity the low energy density zone of the combined atoms equals the sum of the low energy density zone of each atom and so as mass accumulates the size of the low energy density zone increases.

Photons are continually emitted by mass as this continuous flow of EEPs into mass occurs.

Photons can be absorbed by mass and as mass absorbs photons the energy of the mass increases.

The energy of mass increases as it absorbs photons.

The surrounding hydrogen atoms that are emitting photons are continually adding to the energy of the masses of hydrogen atoms that are now forming hydrogen stars.

The energy of the photons emitted by mass increases as the energy of mass goes up and so the energy of photons emitted by the resulting hydrogen stars creates a thermal gradient of photons because photons are emitted from different depths within the stars.

The huge hydrogen stars burn quickly, collapse, explode and burn out leaving a rich temperature gradient signature in the “dust” across a now cooling and expanding expanse of the remnants of the hydrogen epoch in our arena.

The first neutrons form in the hydrogen stars as the gravity of the star forces an electron into the proton.

Heavier nuclei along with an abundance of helium and lithium form from the protons and neutrons as the first round of hydrogen stars collapse and explode.

There is a slight anisotropy in the temperature of this dust because the lives of the first round of hydrogen stars vary slightly and therefore the burn out rate varies as well.

New heavier slower burning stars will form from this dust but first there is a period of thermalization that gives rise to the cosmic microwave background radiation that we now observe.

Galactic structure began to take shape from this thermalized environment as groups of smaller stars formed from the dust of the hydrogen epoch.

The groups of smaller stars were positioned by the density of the dust from the first round of huge hydrogen stars that burned fast, collapsed, exploded and left their mark as hinted to by a pattern of anisotropy in the CMBR.

The first round of hydrogen stars and the subsequent galaxies that formed from their “dust” were all carried apart by the continued progression of the expansion of the high energy density burst into the lower energy density that surrounded the burst.

Separation of galaxies continues today and is accelerating as both expansion and the flow of gravity continues to dilute the density of EEPs across the entire expanse of our arena.

But even with this dilution the reach of gravity is potentially infinite.

Post #3

Why is the reach of gravity potentially infinite?

The answer resides in the description of how matter forms. Remember the low energy density around the proton that causes unifying particles (EEPs) to swarm it resulting in the formation of an electron around a proton and the sloughing of the photon? Well that flow of unifying particles is continuous once matter forms. Unifying particles flow into all mass that contains protons, and photons are sloughed from all electrons that surround protons. It is a continuous flow and mass is always surrounded by a zone of low energy density caused by that continuous flow.

The low energy density surrounding mass would have the same effect as curved or warped space. The difference between gravity in GR and gravity in the ISU is that there is a specific cause of low energy density zone surrounding mass in the ISU while there are only equations that define the curvature of space in GR, but no cause.

Any given volume of space at any energy density contains a “finite number” of unifying particles. If you remove some particles from the perfect background to form a photon, then backfill occurs. Photons take up less space than the EEPs from which they form. Backfill is the movement of unifying particles into the low energy density left by the flow of unifying particles through mass and out as photons. Since there are a finite number of unifying particles in any volume of space, the backfill is felt across the entire volume no matter how far reaching the volume. All of the EEPs in that volume of space are shifted to fill the space vacated by the formation of the new proton.

Bodies in space will move toward the path of lowest energy density. In the case of two bodies, since both are surrounded by low energy density zones that reach across any volume of space due to the “backfill” effect, the path of lowest energy density is a straight line between them. They will ultimately tend toward each other and this tendency will eventually draw them deeper into each others “gravitational well”. Hence the reach of gravity is infinite.

Hmmm, looking at the mainstream equation of gravity I see a 1/R² law, which means that the gravitational force first gets zero when R gets infinite. So, what is the shocking point here?

BTW gravity does not give an object mass, it gives it weight.

__________________

Any comments in glorious red are to be considered in ModeratorMode.


善數, 不用籌策 (shàn shù, bù yòng chóu cè)
He who is good at counting, uses no counting tools
“A good scientist has freed himself of concepts and keeps his mind open to what is”
道德經, 二十七 (dào dé jīng, 27)

Thank you for the response.
Let me make the correction by editing the statement in post #2 from
“Gravity causes matter to attract matter giving matter its mass”, to say, “Gravity causes matter to attract matter giving matter its weight, and weight equals mass times the acceleration due to gravity.”
That is of course true, the reach of gravity is infinite in the mainstream as well as in the ISU. My point was that in the ISU there is a cause of the infinite reach of gravity which was the whole point of my thread.

What is the cause of the infinite reach of gravity in the mainstream?

What is the cause of the infinite reach of gravity in the mainstream?


Uri Geller?

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Did I just hear a cat?

Masslessness of the graviton, just as masslessness of the photon gives electromagnetism an infinite range (potentially).

__________________
Microsoft is over if you want it.

The bar has been lowered for the promotion of ATM ideas; the bar for the acceptance of ATM ideas must remain high.

I didn’t know that was the mainstream position. Here are two links that I found from your input phrases. I don't think there is a description of a unifying particle yet, but obviously there is a big effort going on trying to get there. If they could isolate the elementary unifying particle that everything else is composed of then the rest would unfold quickly.

http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PRD/v68/i8/e084005
Quantum corrections to the Schwarzschild and Kerr metrics
N. E. J. Bjerrum-Bohr
University of Copenhagen, The Niels Bohr Institute, Blegdamsvej 17, Copenhagen Ø, DK-2100, Denmark
John F. Donoghue
Department of Physics, University of Massachusetts, Amherst, Massachusetts01003, USA
Barry R. Holstein
Department of Physics, University of Massachusetts, Amherst, Massachusetts01003, USA
Institut für Kernphysik, Forschungszentrum Jülich, D-52425 Jülich, Germany
Received 18 November 2002; published 17 October 2003

We examine the corrections to the lowest order gravitational interactions of massive particles arising from gravitational radiative corrections. We show how the masslessness of the graviton and the gravitational self-interactions imply the presence of nonanalytic pieces ∼sqrt[-q2],∼q2ln-q2, etc., in the form factors of the energy-momentum tensor and that these correspond to long range modifications of the metric tensor gμν of the form G2m2/r2,G2mħ/r3, etc. The former coincide with well known solutions from classical general relativity, while the latter represent new quantum mechanical effects, whose strength and form is necessitated by the low energy quantum nature of the general relativity. We use these results to define a running gravitational charge.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TVN-486T3KT-95&_user=10&_coverDate=01%2F15%2F1981&_rdoc=1&_fmt =&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_ve rsion=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=ed5be87fd22d1 c785f3104efb2431e2f

Quantum vacuum energy and the masslessness of the photon
P. C. W. Davies and S. D. Unwin
School of Physics, University of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK
Received 29 October 1980. Available online 24 March 2003.

Abstract
We show that the existence of an arbitrarily small photon mass would produce an additional vacuum energy at the surface of a conducting material that should be measurable. The result could have implications for cosmology.

If the photon has any mass at all--then the speed of light isn't c, but just under it--with the unreachable speed not shared by any particle?

Quote:

Originally Posted by publiusr If the photon has any mass at all--then the speed of light isn't c, but just under it--with the unreachable speed not shared by any particle?

Maybe it is a good idea to talk about mass. I’ll say some things that are true in the ISU and some things that I think are true in the mainstream and see if there is any discussion.

Mass in the ISU is the same in any gravitational field, but weight can be very different because the strength of gravitational fields can be very different. Gravity determines the weight of mass. I think this is the same in the mainstream.

Matter in the ISU is composed of elementary energy particles. This might also be true of matter in the mainstream if there is success in the search for a Grand Unification Theory and a unifying particle to go with it, but the mainstream does not go so far as to say so yet.

The benchmark difference between the ISU and the mainstream right now is that in the ISU there is a perfect background from which matter forms and within which matter exists. This perfect background has energy density because it contains energy in the form of EEPs.

In the ISU, as matter is formed there are three particles of interest at the point of abundant matter formation and many particles of interest as ISU nucleosynthesis proceeds. At the point of abundant matter formation protons from, electrons from around protons, and electrons gather energy from the background and emit photons. There is a flow of EEPs from the background into mass and out as photons.

Now what does that say about mass? That the proton and electron have mass is clear because they exert and react to gravity in the ISU and in the mainstream. But then there is the photon which is composed of a small fraction of the energy of an electron and is composed of a grouping of EEPs. Does the photon have mass in the ISU?

Photons react to mass but do not exert gravity themselves. So in the ISU they have mass to the extent that they can be accelerated by gravity, but they do not have mass because they are not attracted to each other since there is no flow of EEPs through them like there is through mass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bogie ... and see if there is any discussion.

That answers the question. There is no discussion.

See if this sparks any consternation or appreciation:

If the ground state energy for the electron of a hydrogen atom consisted of a cloud of smaller particles, i.e. EEPs swarming the proton, then the energy of the EEP would be determined by the electron ground state energy of -13.6 eV divided by the number of EEPs in the electron cloud at the quantum state n=1, I think.

If so, using the formula 1 eV = 1.6 × 10–19 J, then the energy in joules of one unifying particle would be the eV of that particle times 1.6 × 10–19 wouldn’t it?

That being the case, then the energy per cubic meter of the perfect background at equilibrium, i.e. the energy density of the greater universe when matter and energy are in balance, would be the joules of one EEP times the number of the EEPs in that volume of space in the greater universe at that density.

Given the landscape of the greater universe in the ISU, some reasonable estimates of the energy of space could be made if the energy of the ground state EEP were known.

Knowing this energy and using the “infinite reach of gravity” explanation, the energy of the gravitational field in a volume of space would be determinable by comparing the energy at ground state of that volume with the energy of the backfill process that is occurring. That is to say, how many EEPs are shifted into that volume of space vs. how many EEPs are shifted out of that volume of space by the presence of the low energy density space surrounding the mass at some distance away. Therefore the energy of the gravitational field would be directly related to the mass of the object causing the gravitational field and inversely related to the distance that a volume of space is from the object.

Based on the number of times this thread was viewed since the last post I am concluding that a few people have read it completely and didn’t see anything glaring out at them that inspired them to object or to mount a “gleeful attack” characteristic of how ATM threads are supposed to work.

Those few maybe are wondering why I am doing this. I do it because I want to record the details of a cosmology that puts “before and beyond” the big bang on the table with responsible speculation about how it could work and how it could explain the cause of things that BBT just observes and describes but doesn’t explain.

I am doing it because the old adage that says we can’t know about the “before and beyond” because there is an event horizon that we can never cross does not mean that we are not constantly influenced by the “beyond” and does no mean that there was no “before”. There was a “before” and it had everything to do with the “now”.

So responsible and rational “bottom up” construction of what the before and beyond might be can build a better understanding of our place in time and our place in the landscape of the greater universe.

I may or may not have earned some respect by defending my threads, by standing up for myself and what I believe, and by actually offering responsible speculation that can help lead to acceptable speculation. I am speculating about a unifying particle.

Protons consist of smaller particles and there is no proton constituent that is stable enough to exist by itself in nature until you get to the unifying particle itself. Any proton constituents that might be extracted under high energy from the proton are themselves composed of unifying particles. The possible configurations of unstable groupings of EEPs that might never-the-less always appear in high energy experiments does not mean that they appear naturally in a low energy environment.

Now the question is, was matter as we know it born from a “high energy” event plasma “soup” or was matter as we know it born from the energy density of space after an event that took matter that previously existed and squeezed the dickens out of it? I am talking about squeezing it until it couldn’t retain is structure as “matter” and was forced into a homogeneous ball of extremely compact unifying particles?

I think the “soup” of BBT was a homogeneous ball of extremely compacted unifying particles. Unifying particles don’t radiate electromagnetic radiation, matter does. If there was no matter in the initial event then there was no EM emitted when it occurred. That is what I think happened. The “before” is matter that previously existed and got squeezed into a homogeneous ball of extremely compacted unifying particles.

Now granted there was a whole lot of EM emitted outside, around and inside during the process of achieving the big squeeze but that was before the squeeze became the overriding entity that eventually emerged.

Those compact unifying particles are still individual indestructible particles that contain their own power that is expressed by a pulse that occurs every time they expand and contract. When squeezed into a homogeneous ball of extremely compacted unifying particles, they still want to expand and contract but can’t. They still have the potential to resume pulsing when the density is lowered but first the squeeze must be overcome.

The squeeze is gravity; gravity like in a big crunch as in an accumulation of previously existing matter in the form of galaxies, black holes, “dust”, and photons that gravity grabbed from the greater universe and squeezed. The unifying particles became locked but there was a build of potential energy as the locked core grew. Eventually the core burst and out came the homogeneous ball of extremely condensed unifying particles that we now know and love as “our expanding universe”.

I repeat this because I am about to make the first estimates of the size and energy of the EEP based on this bottom up approach.

The proton is a key to making these estimates.

I have recently seen how two separate relationships coming to light from my sequential recap in post #2 can be put together and allow me to make the first estimates of the size and energy of an elementary energy particle (EEP). You will have to decide for yourself if this bottom up analysis leading to quantification of the EEP can be considered responsible speculation or not.

In my next post I am going to examine the bottom up construction of the proton from the energy density of space in a new level of detail so that you can see one of those two relationships more clearly.

I am looking for a collaborator to work with me in quantifying the ISU so if you begin to have any interest in such a project email or PM me.

The homogeneous ball of extremely compacted unifying particles in the arena must expand until the density reaches the ideal density for matter formation. You will remember that the expansion is caused by the energy density differential between the energy density of the homogeneous ball of extremely compacted EEPs and the relatively low energy density of the greater universe surrounding the dense energy ball. You have EEPs moving from high energy density to low energy density; a process I refer to as equalization of the energy density differential.

As this differential is reduced to the ideal energy density for matter formation, matter forms quickly across the entire expanse, almost simultaneously.

EEPs can finally form groupings when the density declines because they reach the point where they can pulse sufficiently to complete their contraction phase before the space that they are contracting in is intruded on by the expansion phase of an adjacent EEP.

When an EEP completes this contraction fully and when it occurs at precisely the instant that the adjacent EEP has reached its full expansion, the two adjacent EEPs get synchronized and from that point forward are joined and hold each other together. Their alternating pulses, i.e. their opposite energy density fluctuations form a bond between them. The opposite energy density fluctuations act as a zone of alternating energy density differential causing them to attract each other when synchronized.

EEPs within a proton can be bonded in this way to multiple EEPs via this energy density differential caused by alternating expansion and contraction. Trying to visualize the interaction of billions of EEPs synchronized in a proton is daunting; it is the kind of application that super computers are best at.

Because there is no overlap or intrusion due to the synchronization, the joined EEPs pulse alternately in the same space without overlap. Prior to this synchronization they were competing for space and impeded each other, keeping each other from sufficiently contracting.

Synchronization happens as just the right energy density of EEPs in space is reached. It can’t occur when the energy density is too high, it occurs quickly and abundantly when the density is just right, and it stops occurring when the space is dominated by protons that quickly form when the ideal density occurs. We get a certain number of protons per volume of space at this energy density.

As the protons form, the merged EEPs occupy less space than they did in the instant before they merged. This occurs because before the ideal energy density there was chaotic jostling where the density was too high to allow and EEPs to complete their full pulse cycle without overlapping with adjacent EEPs and there was no opportunity for synchronization due to the overlapping across the entire expanse. When energy density lowers enough and first allows this full contracting and thus allows the synchronization of EEPs pulsing in the same space alternately, there is a more orderly environment and a very high occurrence of synchronization that has the effect of significantly lowering the energy density across the entire expansion almost simultaneously. This is also an important point for later discussion of the variable rate of expansion during abundant matter formation.

Synchronized groupings have vacated some space surrounding the new grouping and the EEPs in the energy density of space rush in to fill the vacated space. Vacated space has the ultimate low energy density and creates an immediate energy density differential that the EEPs in the surrounding space must equalize. They rush toward the low energy density. During this rush additional synchronization occurs and the grouping grows into a larger and larger synchronized entity until stability is achieved. Stability is achieved when the surface of the grouping is so orderly that there is no niche for an additional EEP to fit in. Every place on the surface is occupied by an EEP and the surface takes on a boundary-like characteristic because EEPs can no longer penetrate it.

About the proton as a whole, the proton surface consists of EEPs that are expanding and contracting, and as a surface EEP contracts, it leaves the surface by moving below the surface and an expanding EEP replaces it on the surface. The surface is always covered by an optimum density of expanding EEPs. Think about it as if the EEPs that have just finished their contraction just below the surface will start their expansion, just as the EEPs on the surface are beginning their contraction. The expanding EEPs will push up into the space that is being vacated by the contraction of the EEPs on the surface. The surface area of the proton sphere is the barrier that the swarming EEPs come into contact with but they can never find an opening because of the perfect stability of the proton at optimum density.

So here is the first clue as to the size of the EEP. There is a relationship between the surface of the proton, i.e. the number of EEPs on the surface at any given time, and the volume of the proton, i.e. the total number of EEPs in the entire proton.

The radius of the proton in “average EEP diameters” is one of the figures that enter into the calculation of the number of EEPs on the surface of the proton. In the next post I will explain how I determine the “average EEP diameters” that make up the radius of the proton, and I will explain the second relationship that I came upon that allows for the first estimates of the size and energy of the EEP.

Note that the EEP always has positive energy. The electric charge is the energy density differential between two energy environments. The negative charge assigned to an electron is an energy differential between the EEPs that make up the electron and the low energy density surrounding the proton.

If no one is offering any objections ...

I declare the ISU and the EEP to be the mainstream. OK?

Consider the implications. All replies to Q&A would have to be from the ISU perspective.

It seems that the current membership is in a bind because I have made such rational and responsible speculation about the EEP and the ISU that no questions come to mind. This stuff is pure?

Lurkers, join the ISU with me. Sign up at BAUT (it’s free!), and post on my thread to let me know you are out there. If you want, I’ll make you official members of the ISU. I hate being alone in the ISU.

I’m asking for guesses as to what you think I will say are the size and energy of an EEP.

Put them in this format:

EEP average diameter = X.XX times 10-xx meters

EEP energy = X.XX times 10-xx joules

Note that the EEP always has positive energy. The electric charge is the energy density differential between two energy environments. The negative charge assigned to an electron is an energy differential between the EEPs that make up the electron and the low energy density surrounding the proton. Therefore the EEP has a positive energy value while the electron has a negative energy value for calculation purposes.

It is like money on a balance sheet. The debits are on the left and the credits are on the right, but just like a dollar is still a dollar, an EEP is still an EEP, .

OK, but what is an EEP?

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PW -- Plant Whisperer

Good question . Read post #2.

I am thinking here of the motion of the EEP into matter, and thinking in very broad terms at that.

Say for instance in a fluid situation the flow caused spin at a molecular level so that each particle of matter absorbed the EEP in a flow like spiral. The effect of multiple exits would be the equivalent of quantum spin which in turn if lined up correctly should correspond to greater rotations in the part we live in.

That is quantum spin linkes directly to the rotations of the planets and for that matter out to the galaxies.

Now with any fluid like flow there needs to be a return mechanism otherwise we get back to the "some supreme deity keeps replenishing it". Is it possible that there is a quantum entanglement effect where EEPs flow into matter and elswhere they flow out of it again.

It would mean a binary state of matter for the constant but dynamic state of the EEP. I don't know if this helps, but you are not alone in looking for answers. I think it must be great to be a world famous scientist rather like a master builder, there are many who can work on parts of a building but so few gifted enough to complete the task from design to foundation to finish all on their own resources.

Cheers Mike

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Noonan I am thinking here of the motion of the EEP into matter, and thinking in very broad terms at that.

Thank you Mike, you’re thinking outside the box and that is the sign of an innovator. Maybe I will get to the point that I can address spin in the ISU but right now, as you can tell, the bottom up process is just on the verge of the first attempt to quantify the EEP. It is a long road from there to quantum spin I guess, and once there, maybe then not so far to the formation of galaxies where the question of rotation may very well sort out to the ideas of the “flow” that you acknowledge as possible. But we won’t hold our breath ‘til then, now will we?

This thread would benefit from a few people like you reading every word from the beginning. Everything important about the ISU and the EEP is here on this thread, and the current status of the development of the bottom up process can be clearly ascertained. One solid debunking and the ISU would be over. Why are people stifling themselves when they could end this by revealing a fatal error? This stuff just keeps coming to me when no one sticks out their foot, you know what I mean?

Yet not one of the great posters, and there are many, has honored me with anything akin to a challenge of the content. Am I to believe that my clear presentation is flawless? I don’t think so. Am I to believe that everyone is just waiting for the values I promise to present before the questions begin? Call it intuition but I think there will be no questions at all. Your post is supportive though and I appreciate the input and encourage you to read the whole thread and post some questions about the content .

The electron forms around the proton as discussed earlier in the thread (post #2). The surface of the proton serves as a boundary just inside the vacated space that originated as the EEPs in the proton became synchronized. The vacated space serves as the ultimate low energy density environment setting up an energy density differential. EEPs surrounding the vacated space immediately respond by filling the vacated zone as they attempt to equalize the energy density. The electron forms from this onslaught after the stable surface of the proton is established.

Filling the zone, i.e. equalizing this unique energy density differential is not just a casual shift of EEPs toward the surface of the proton. It is a rush that crams EEPs into the zone like the three stooges all trying to go through a doorway at the same time. This swarming quickly completes the construction of the proton. The swarming does not stop when the proton is complete; the electron forms next from this same process.

The electron underneath the “weight” of the continuing swarm of EEPs reaches capacity and sloughs excess EEPs in the form of a photon like a little bullet forced out of the cloud at the speed of light.

The energy of the photon is derived from the energy differential between the vacated zone surrounding the proton, the high energy density of the swarming EEPs, and the variable energy density capacity of the electron (different n states for comparison with mainstream). In other words the energy density differential in the zone is so great that the variable capacity of the electron is reached, extending the election volume beyond the stability of the initial rest state, and the electron emits the photon, stabilizing the electron at rest in the zone and under control of the proton in a one-to-one EEP relationship between the surface of the proton and the electron cloud.

The sloughing of the photon collapses the electron which again creates an energy density differential that is again filled by swarming EEPs continuing the photon sloughing process to maintain the rest status of the newly formed electron.

The hydrogen atom now exits and hydrogen atoms make up all of the matter and mass in the entire universe at this early stage of matter formation.

The number of EEPs in the electron is determined by the number that can come in contact with that surface at any instant. There is a one to one relationship between the number of EEPs on the surface of the proton and the number of EEPs that make up the electron cloud at rest. The proton is quite dense relative to the unsynchronized EEPs rushing its surface. The electron is much less dense because it is a chaotic cloud of swarming EEPs instead of a stable and orderly configuration of EEPs like the proton. The difference in energy density between the proton and the electron should make for the huge size differential of the electron relative to the proton.

The electron is a quantity of EEPs in the zone but the individual EEPs are always changing position as they approach the surface and are denied entrance only to be replaced by another of the swarming EEPs. The turnover of the EEPs that form the electron is continuous. The electron changes its EEP content all of the time and the number of EEPs that make up the electron is a variable. The low end is fixed at the number of EEPs on the surface of the proton, and the high end is determined by the level of excitement associated with the electron as it goes through the process of gathering EEPs over and above the fixed low end EEP capacity of the electron and before it emits a photon (and as it absorbs photons emitted by other H atoms).

The relationship between the mass of the electron at rest and the mass of the proton, both consisting entirely of EEPs, a relationship used by the mainstream, is accepted by the ISU for purposes establishing the size of the average EEP diameter in the proton. I am using a 1:1,836 relationship between the mass of the electron and the mass of the proton for the calculations. This is the second relationship that I mention that now allows me to make the first estimate of the energy and size of the EEP.

In my next content post I will quantify the concept of an “average EEP diameter” and will post my first estimate of the energy value of an EEP, along with simple formulas used in the calculations.

You have to remember that my need for help becomes more and more obvious the further I go without it. I know there is a conventional wisdom or attitude that says we ATMers don’t listen, but if you go back through my threads you will find that I do listen. I am not asking for someone to jump on board believing in the ISU. I am asking for collaboration to get the best presentation of my ATM idea to you, and you are the ones that I am asking to help me do that. Without help, this is what you get (would you please offer to help? Send me email or PM if you want.):

Relationship #1 is the surface vs. the volume of the proton. Simple math comparing the formula for the surface of a sphere and the formula for the volume of a sphere with these formulas: Surface Area = 4 pi r2; Volume = 4/3 pi r3.

To determine the specific numbers we need the radius.

For relationship #2, we know the relationship between the mass of the electron and the mass of the proton, both consisting entirely of EEPs, albeit at drastically different densities of EEPs; 1:1,836.

So we solve for the radius that gives us the same relationship between the surface and the volume of the proton as we get between the mass of the electron and the mass of the proton. That way, since my idea is that the number of EEPs in the electron at rest is equal to the number of EEPs on the surface of the proton, and a proton is a sphere in the ISU, then I have the number of EEPs in an electron at rest when I have the number of EEPs on the surface of a proton.

I did this using the trial and error method, this website, and an Excel spreadsheet and about five minutes. It turns out that a radius of 5,508 units gives us the right relationship, i.e. 1:1,836.

The result of 5,508 occurs at a surface of 381,239,356 units, and a volume of 699,955,457,517 units, right at 1:1,836. The electron at rest equals the number of surface EEPs and so the electron contains 381,239,356 EEPs.

Some concern exists about using the average diameter of the EEP as a unit of measure since clearly the EEP at this average diameter has volume itself, so you may want to suggest a better way to go about this. Anyway, the two relationships working together should allow us to quantify the EEP even though the next round of calculations based on your input may change the numbers. Until then I will go with the first round numbers.

According to this site the diameter of a proton = 10^-15 m. The radius I obtained for the proton in average EEP diameters times two equals a diameter of 11,016 average EEP diameters. Dividing the diameter of the proton in meters by the number of average EEP diameters, it turns out that the average diameter of an EEP is 9.08 x 10^-20 meters.

((10^(-15)) m) / 11 016 = 9.07770516 × 10^-20 meters is the diameter of EEP.

The energy of an EEP is the electron ground state energy of -13.6 eV divided by 381,239,356 EEPs in the electron cloud at the ground state (equivalent to the quantum state n=1 in QM?), and the energy of an individual EEP in joules is that energy in eV times 1.6 × 10^–19.

(13.6 eV / 381,239,356) x (1.6 x 10^-19) = 5.71 x 10^-27 joules, the joules of one EEP.

Simple math, right?

Note that the EEP always has positive energy. The electric charge is the energy density differential between two energy environments. The negative charge assigned to an electron is an energy differential between the EEPs that make up the electron and the low energy density space surrounding the proton.

It would be understandable if you had questions about some of this. I will defend it (or cave! ).

I think this is 5.71 x 10^-27 joules (to be revised as others provide input). Is there some shorthand notation that will let me refer to this value?

Maybe E1 or something?You may not yet see how having this value relates to the infinite reach of gravity, but …And any patch of space contains the pattern of the gravitational fields that are coursing through it.

Now put on your thinking caps and go with me for just a second.

Put in your mind the idea that our arena is expanding (that’s an easy one).

Put in there with that thought that when it expands, the energy density of all of the contiguous space in our arena is affected by that expansion (not a radical thought is it?).

Think of the expansion as a process of equalization between two different energy environments, i.e. our arena is one environment, and the greater universe is the other environment (I’m referring to a huge energy density differential between those two environments).

There are EEPs in all of the contiguous space of our arena as the arena expands.

Each of those individual EEPs moves relative to all of the others as the expansion progresses. That may not seem like such a big point but there is a reason why it is significant. The gravitational fields of all of the mass in our arena are influencing the movement of each of the EEPs as the arena expands.

This makes any patch of space in the arena a little GPS device to the extent that if we could plot the movement of each of the EEPs in that patch of space as the arena expands, we could get a picture of all of the gravitational fields that are coursing through it.

Since the reach of gravity is infinite, any patch of space contains a record of the location of all of the objects in the arena. Triangulation using this technique could precisely pinpoint each mass within the triangle.

“5.71 x 10^-27 joules”

The “EEP theory” predicts that the energy of the EEP at rest is 5.71 x 10^-27 joules.

The reason that I put “” around the phrase “EEP theory” is because this is the first quantitative prediction that I have made about the EEP, and I am wondering if we can call it a theory simply on that basis?

It is still ATM, but is it still an ATM idea or is it an ATM theory?

Note that the EEP always has positive energy. The electric charge is the energy density differential between two energy environments. The negative charge assigned to an electron is an energy differential between the EEPs that make up the electron and the low energy density surrounding the proton.

Bogie

if gravity is infinite why wouldn't there be at some point a cancellation of gravity. assuming that gravity everywhere is on the same wavelength?

or why wouldn't gravity interfer with its self?

for at some point gravity from one object would meet the gravity from another , from the opposite direction.

Hi North.

There is a low energy density point at the convergence of gravitational fields. This is a unique point for each pair of masses. There can be and are multiple convergences happening all over space but that does not impede gravity. It is all instantly sorted out by the response of the masses involved to the various convergent points. The gravitational field moves with them as they respond to the fields. What was the net directional force of the field an instant ago is no longer the net directional force an instant later. The gravitational signatures in any patch of space are changing constantly.

This is why I have been careful to point out when discussing the cause of gravity and the infinite reach of gravity, “Bodies in space will move toward the path of lowest energy density, i.e. in the case of two bodies, since both are surrounded by low energy density zones that reach across any volume of space due to the “backfill” effect, the path of lowest energy density is a straight line between them.”

“They will ultimately tend toward each other and this tendency will eventually draw them deeper into each others “gravitational well”, hence the reach of gravity is infinite.”

In the case of multiple convergences which is obviously the reality, the movement of all of the bodies involved has two immediate effects. One effect is that all of the bodies respond to the existing configuration of forces, and the second effect is that the response, i.e. the movement of all of those bodies changes the configuration of forces and those changes are recognized by the shift of EEPs across space.

Gravity is not a wave length; it is a shift in the density of the EEPs in space between the objects.

If the charge of one electron is equal to -1.6022×10^-19 Coulombs, and there are 381,239,356 theoretical unifying particles in the electron, does the math work out to ((-1.6022) × (10^(-19)) C) / 381 239 356 = -4.20260913 × 10^-28 coulombs per unifying particle? I am asking for someone to check the math.

Understanding the infinite reach of gravity as a flow of electrical current:
We are looking at an arena, our expanding universe at the point in time that matter has just formed. Matter at this early stage in the bottom up analysis of nucleosynthesis consists of hydrogen atoms. Gravity has begun in the arena for the first time since the ball of extremely high energy density EEPs emerged from the negated crunch.

Gravity is the flow of EEPs from the energy density of space, through the atom and out as photons.

This is like an electrical current flowing from the energy density of space, through the atom and out of the atom in the form of photons. The atom generates this current.

This is not to say that the photons don’t then have their roll in the energy transfer process, but the flow from the energy density of space into the formation of photons is a perpetual current through the atom. Photons act like little storage batteries that contain energy that can then be transferred to matter.

The electrical charge of the EEP = -4.20260913 × 10-28 coulombs per unifying particle if my assumptions and calculations are correct.

This makes gravity an electrical current that has an infinite reach across space that contains energy density in the form of EEPs, i.e. all space. The force of gravity can be measured at the source if the photons that are emitted from this flow can be measured and if the energy of the photon can be converted to EEPs.

The force of the gravitational field in any patch of space can be measured by the movement of EEPs in the patch of space. Movement of those EEP is in response to the low energy density generated around mass by the initial formation of protons. The low energy density surrounding mass is perpetuated continuously by the flow of gravity.

Can anyone object and show some reason for the objection? I would like to be able to put all of this ISU and EEP stuff behind me. My only way out is for you to embarrass me with the obvious that I have missed in this bottom up process of trying to understand the universe.

I have added a lot of content to the ISU in this thread because obviously gravity plays a major role in the universe. This thread is essentially about the cause and workings of gravity, and I have shown how gravity works and why the reach of gravity is infinite using the now infamous bottom up approach. Your input would be appreciated.

The bottom up approach is supposed to elicit help from the professionals who are familiar with the body of scientific knowledge. Help is solicited each step along the way but I fear my welcome has worn thin because I have been bottom upping too long I guess. Oh well, I will keep plugging away. What I have so far includes all of the input I have received from you.

I will try to update post #2 to include the content from this thread, and I will cut and past the glossary of the ISU and update it at the end of this thread before the clock runs out. That way, if I am permitted a next thread I can simply link to that updated ISU summary and to the updated glossary from this thread and then go into the next new content area. As always, I will include any input I get from you in those updates.

As for new content, I need to put together the workings of the “energy to matter to energy” process. That process works because of the continually changing energy density, from the very balanced energy density of the universe as a whole to the very unbalanced energy density that typifies an arena within the greater universe. That is a thread in itself.

I also want to take the early hydrogen environment that I have developed so far using the bottom up approach, and advance it from the beginning and through the completion of the first round of hydrogen stars, setting the stage for a thread on ISU nucleosynthesis, the thermalization epoch and the CMBR, all with new content to be added.

A favorite subject to me is the formation of structure in the universe, and particularly galactic structure. I will bottom up that process at some point.

Then a thread on the phases of matter; collapse, burst, and expansion that typify an arena might be in order.

For the fun of it, I also want to put together a list of bogie “isms”; sayings that I have coined along the way like, “Anything finite is almost nothing, almost nowhere, almost never relative to the infinite.” That saying is not intended to be religious or spiritual in any way but it is often misinterpreted. Then there is the one that says, “Anything that has any probability at all is a certainty to occur in an infinite universe.” That “certainty principle” is the idea that is behind it when I say that anything is possible in the ISU. People don’t like it when I say that for some reason. And of course there is the term, “Infinite Spongy Universe” itself. It is really very descriptive but you have to be there I guess.

Anyway, maybe as many as three of you will have read this far and the impression you have is probably still “so what” or “who cares”, so I will be working on the updates like I said. I have a couple of weeks to post them I think. Send me a PM or an e-mail and let me know if you actually read this stuff. If you are a lurker, sign up to BAUT and let me know you did. I need new people who haven’t been burned out by me yet, lol.

Wow, 381,239,356 EEPs in an electron. Why this number and not 381,239,355 or 381,239,357 or ...?

If EEPs have negative charge, where does the positive charge of the proton come from? And with the proton being made of so many more EEPs than the electron, why is its charge exactly the negative of that of the electron?

All I see here is numerology. At least you're in good company. Eddington's Fundamental Theory of the 1940s attempted to justify the fine-structure constant being about 1/137 and used it in an equation for the proton/electron mass ratio. Unfortunately even as he wrote it other particles beyond the electron, proton and neutron were being discovered in cosmic rays. Eddington's theory is a dead end.

Charge and its quantization is a real effect. Merely subdividing the known particles into large, seemingly random, numbers of units completely ignores this.

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The bar has been lowered for the promotion of ATM ideas; the bar for the acceptance of ATM ideas must remain high.

http://www.bautforum.com/showthread....062#post984062
Post #19, #20 and several posts thereafter go into the reasoning behind those calculations. If you have read those posts you see why it is 381,239,356.
I have mentioned several times that the EEP has a positive energy.

I quote, "Note that the EEP always has positive energy. The electric charge is the energy density differential between two energy environments. The negative charge assigned to an electron is an energy differential between the EEPs that make up the electron and the low energy density surrounding the proton."
This post covers that.

The infinite reach of gravity in the ISU

Also see post #20 and several after that to get a better picture.
The ISU could easily suffer the same fate .

Last two posts moved from the Why the perfect background of the ISU isn’t luminiferous aether either thread to here at the posters' request.

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Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.