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Old 15-June-2003, 04:34 AM
girl101 girl101 is offline
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Default skywatcher's posts
Ok, is anyone else getting tired of the skywatcher game?

I say NO MORE RESPONDING. Until skywatcher can prove that he can actually post something

#1 original, of his OWN thoughts

#2 NOT from Godlike's forum

#3 an actual post, not just a link to somewhere else

#4 as a response to a post he put forward.

skywatcher is trolling here - maybe once in a blue moon he will reply to a post he begins, but usually it is just another link.

I say, no more replies to skywatcher. He is a troll and is cluttering up the place.

Skywatcher, stay on godlike - you have nothing to add here. Stay there where people believe the crud that is posted.

Sorry if I'm being harsde, but I am just getting tired of the <link>, followed by, "what do you think this is guys?"

He obviously doesn't listen.

Girl 101
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Old 15-June-2003, 04:48 AM
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Default Re: skywatcher's posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by girl101
Ok, is anyone else getting tired of the skywatcher game?

I say NO MORE RESPONDING. Until skywatcher can prove that he can actually post something

#1 original, of his OWN thoughts

#2 NOT from Godlike's forum

#3 an actual post, not just a link to somewhere else

#4 as a response to a post he put forward.

skywatcher is trolling here - maybe once in a blue moon he will reply to a post he begins, but usually it is just another link.

I say, no more replies to skywatcher. He is a troll and is cluttering up the place.

Skywatcher, stay on godlike - you have nothing to add here. Stay there where people believe the crud that is posted.

Sorry if I'm being harsde, but I am just getting tired of the <link>, followed by, "what do you think this is guys?"

He obviously doesn't listen.

Girl 101
Well said. But while I generally agree with the gist of what you're saying (he/she is totally a cringe-making poster), it's skywatcher's persistence in starting pointless threads that is the problem. Pointless follow-up posts can be ignored/lost. Someone's already pointed out to her/him that we could go and read GLP for ourselves - if we wanted to incur that level of brain damage.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 15-June-2003, 04:48 AM
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He doesn't always reply (which sets my spider sense tingling) but does reply sometimes. Also, he also seems to be pointing out general GLP silliness. I say this buys him some breathing room. Some.
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Old 15-June-2003, 10:06 AM
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Toutatis Toutatis is offline
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While I don't know for certian --- I very strongly suspect “Skywatcher” = “Sam” & “BmpBmp” ('Sam' and 'BmpBmp' are, by “his” own admission, definitely one in the same)

Skywatcher's M.O. is identical! - To wit: ceaseless references to propaganda and irrelevant, manifestly benign, material (usually images) - accompanied by overt or covert suggestion of cause for angst therein, refusal to learn from, heed the advice of, and, for the most part, so much as acknowledge respondents - The ‘whipped pup routine' being “his” ‘standard’ response to strong criticism…

Like Skywatcher, 'Sam' (BmpBmp's HZ pseudonym) occasionally employed 'skepticism' as an 'introductory auxiliary' --- IMO as an attempt to ‘disarm’ “his” critics…

IMHO said behavior represents gray-area ‘trolling’, inasmuch as “he” is sheltering back of a smokescreen of feigned ignorance while garnering attention and creating annoyance… The situation was similar on the HZ. While many found 'Sam' exasperating, “his” antics failed to rise to the level of expulsion lest we be deemed elitist or impatient… For my part, I feel Skywatcher's *REFUSAL* to learn betrays his insincerity...

My $.02…..

BTW BA? - FWIW “Sam’s” IPs traced to several ISP’s in Toronto and, occasionally, the eastern provinces (colloquially ‘The Maritimes’) --- Please understand, I offer this info as a courtesy (should you wish to ‘compare notes’) – I understand that for ethical reasons, etc. you will most likely prefer to withhold comment…

Respectfully
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Old 15-June-2003, 12:42 PM
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Jigsaw Jigsaw is offline
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Er, ah, um...

Sorry, Girl, have to disagree.

I am personally very uncomfortable with publicly labelling someone a troll except for truly egregious troll behavior--which so far I don't really see demonstrated. True, he doesn't seem to bring much feedback to his threads, and the "But what about this picture?" threads are annoying, but then, a certain percentage of people on message boards are like that. They're there to make their voices heard, not to "make conversation" in the sense of talking "with" other people. And a certain percentage of people on other message boards do tend to post pointless "Hey, what about this?" threads, whether it's gardening or Harry Potter or Britney Spears or whatever.

Some people are just conversationally challenged, they don't "get" the idea of "feedback" with other people--it doesn't necessarily mean they're trolling.

I think Skywatcher is just someone who's found a comfortable Internet venue for his voice to be heard, not that he's particularly interested in astronomy as such, but just that this is a safe place to make posts without fear of devastating flames and mockery, such as is found on some other boards like the SDMB and JREF.

And I think for this reason he's probably also a heavy contributor to Godlike, under *whatever* name, because all the posts there are pretty much totally self-involved, basically like painting your name on the subway wall. No feedback from other people is required.

And hey, there's room for that kind of thing on the Internet. Different strokes, etc. Check out any Tweens message board--all those 12-year-olds aren't talking to each other at all, they're just talking to the air, to themselves.

Let him alone, I say. [shrug] Time will tell. One of three things will happen:

1. He'll get worse, more "in your face", and his true nature will be revealed.

2. He'll get better--he'll get enough constructive feedback from the BABB community to figure out the "conversation" thing, and he'll turn into a productive member of the community.

3. He'll stay the same, and will continue posting threads without really responding to posts in them. Which I don't think really hurts anything.

The way I see it, it's a win-win-win situation for the BABB.
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Old 15-June-2003, 01:55 PM
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Jigsaw,

Quote:
...a certain percentage of people on message boards are like that...
and

Quote:
...a certain percentage of people on other message boards do tend to post pointless "Hey, what about this?" threads...
One of the main attractions of this board is that it is not like other boards. The BABB has a very high signal-to-noise ratio. Inane posts dilute that and decrease the value of this board. "It happens on other boards" does not justify it happening here.

Quote:
I think Skywatcher is just someone who's found a comfortable Internet venue for his voice to be heard, not that he's particularly interested in astronomy as such...
But, this is an astronomy board!

Quote:
... but just that this is a safe place to make posts without fear of devastating flames and mockery, such as is found on some other boards like the SDMB and JREF.
I repeat. This is an astronomy board! It is not a refuge for inane posters who can't take the heat on less BS tolerant boards. Just because we are (generally) more polite than other boards does not make us an asylum for the netically challenged
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Old 15-June-2003, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigsaw
not to "make conversation" .... whether it's gardening or Harry Potter or Britney Spears or whatever.
I must agree, the Britney Spears forum is for observing pics and not making much conversation. A "hey what about this pic" topic would be perfectly appropiate. :P
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Old 15-June-2003, 02:39 PM
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girl101 - just remember this picture provided by WolfKc. It helps keep all this PX nonsense in perspective.
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Old 15-June-2003, 03:28 PM
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While I don't know for certian --- I very strongly suspect “Skywatcher” = “Sam” & “BmpBmp” ('Sam' and 'BmpBmp' are, by “his” own admission, definitely one in the same)
Toutatis,

I would wager a tidy sum on that assumption.

Maybe ,though just a little change in telltale personality to confuse those here ....But the prominent highlites of the feigned personality shine through
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Old 15-June-2003, 06:11 PM
Ba Witda Ba Witda is offline
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Ba suggests Skywatcher be allowed to stay, on the proviso that he be made a slave of the Temple of Ba. Ba needs more slaves to serve his priesthood. They don't seem to last very long for some reason.
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Old 15-June-2003, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ba Witda
Ba suggests Skywatcher be allowed to stay, on the proviso that he be made a slave of the Temple of Ba. Ba needs more slaves to serve his priesthood. They don't seem to last very long for some reason.
Gee, that's pretty cool. If we agree with BA we're priests and if we disagree we're slaves. Hmmm ... I guess some of us are priests in the PX forum but slaves in the ATM forum. Funny, I feel like the same person both when I'm a priest and when I'm a slave. Either BA treats his priests very poorly or his slaves too well.
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Old 15-June-2003, 07:05 PM
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Well, Kaptain, I agree with you that the BABB is a very nice MB with a high signal-to-noise ratio, and that for this reason it's not like most of the other boards out there. However, it does have one thing in common with all the other message boards on the Internet--it's open to the public. And short of going to pay-to-post, there isn't much any of us, or the BA, can do about people who register here and then begin posting inanities. As long as they're not off-topic, rude, vulgar, etc., they're not violating anything in the FAQ or the registration agreement. There's nothing in the FAQ that specifies "All posts must advance the course of intelligent adult conversation". I wouldn't expect the BA to ban Skywatcher just for posting inanities. They aren't off-topic inanities, for one thing--he's not posting threads about Harry Potter or Britney Spears. He is sticking to the subject of "astronomy", to the same degree that the rest of us stick to "astronomy". (Viz. the "earth degree confluence" thread--it's not about astronomy, but nobody's jumping down Sarongsong's throat for that...)

This is what the FAQ says:

Quote:
I am not a fan of the post-and-run technique of posting a single provocative statement (or, commonly, a URL to a pseudoscience website) and then never posting again in a thread. This is only a step above trolling. Barely. Do this more than once and you'll be warned. Do it again, and poof: you'll be banned.
But he actually hasn't been posting provocative hit-and-run OPs (see below).

Quote:
"It happens on other boards" does not justify it happening here.
Well, yes, actually it does. This is a public forum, like all the others. We can't keep this board any "purer" than anybody else on the Internet can keep their boards. I understand that it's annoying when Tacky Clueless People take up residence on "My" message board, the way it's annoying when Tacky Clueless People move into "My" neighborhood, or take "My Spot" in the church pew or at the municipal swimming pool, but as long as the Tacky Clueless People have the same right to be there, you can't do much about it.

Quote:
Inane posts dilute that and decrease the value of this board.
Okay, so how are you going to prevent inane posts? Are you going to have Thought Police witch hunts, to finger all those whose posts are considered "not quite the thing" for the BABB, not quite "up to snuff"? Who's going to decide that someone's posts are inane? The BA? Doesn't he have enough to do? The membership? Which part of the membership?

How are you going to define "inane"? "An URL with no comment or followup"? Many members post "Hey, look at this" threads, with no followup. Aren't those then "inane", too?

Or maybe "asking a dumb question, the answer to which should be obvious"? "Dumb" to whom? All of us need to ask dumb questions from time to time--should we make people afraid to ask dumb questions for fear they'll be labeled a "troll" and hounded off the BABB?

See, the problem I see developing here is where people start labeling "anybody who doesn't fit in" on a message board as a "troll", which is incorrect. A "troll" properly speaking is someone who is here just to stir up trouble, just to get people upset.

And so far, I don't see Skywatcher doing that. Usually when someone posts inanities on a message board with the express purpose of jerking everybody's chain, he turns up the volume after a week or so, and really starts getting in everybody's face, to where it's obvious that he's just there for mischief. Your true troll who is posting inanities will start coming back in his threads with "Oh yeah?" or "Ha ha" snotty remarks, and then you know where you stand.

But I don't see Skywatcher doing that.

And I don't see there's a danger that the BABB might turn into an "asylum for the Netically challenged". I don't think there's the slightest possibility of that happening. Look at the last two pages of the Memberlist sorted by registration date. The majority of the people who joined in the last week or so have post counts in the single digits, and even "zero". The majority of people who register here make a few posts (or even zero posts), look around, realize that this really is a serious MB about astronomy stuff, and most importantly, that there's no General Chitchat forum--and they leave. Even if they're Netically challenged and may be attracted by the overall tone of politeness, still it's abundantly clear that we only wanna talk about astronomy, period. And so most of them go away.

And anyway, trying to keep your message board from turning into an asylum for the Netically challenged by having Thought Police witch hunts to point out all those members whose posts don't "fit in" is not the way to go. You're talking about keeping your message board "pure", is what you're talking about, but if you go down that road, your MB turns into a never-ending series of troll hunts. You get members who devote themselves to deciding whether every new registration is a troll or not, which makes it INCREDIBLY hard for Newbies to find a place to fit in. If their every post is being viewed with suspicion, and is being evaluated by the board's Mrs. Grundies, sooner or later they step on some Mrs. Grundy's toes, she hollers "Troll!"--and the Newbie, if he's a Nice Person and not a Troll, has his feelings hurt, and he leaves. And hurting the feelings of Nice Person Newbies so that they don't stick around is a sure-fire recipe to have your MB turn into a troll-infested wilderness, where Nice People won't stay because Mrs. Grundy keeps accusing them of being a troll, but the trolls find it an ideal habitat, since battles with all the Mrs. Grundies are right up their alley.

In the interests of fairness, I have been sitting here, working my way through Skywatcher's posting history.

Here are all the threads he has started.

http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5604
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5611
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5625
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5618
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5599
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5624
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5655
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5679
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5676
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5689
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5686
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5693
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5723
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5720
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5728
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5758
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5761
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5687
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5731
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5779
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5829
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5890
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5806
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5892
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5897
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5920
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5925
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5880
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5921
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5915
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6021
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5978
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6048
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6024
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6093
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6099
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6088
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6135
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6125
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6163
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6191
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6204
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6145
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6239
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6252
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6251
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6210

I have looked through all these threads, and the following are the only threads where he never came back into the thread. In all of them, it seems to me that he had good reasons for not coming back.

Lots of us post threads ridiculing various hoaxers; I think it's understood that no further reply is called for from the OP.

And when you ask a question, and your question is answered, it's polite to come back and say "thank you", or otherwise indicate that you grasped the explanation. If you don't, it's tacky--but it's not "troll behavior".

Ridiculing Godlike:
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5611

Asking about a website that was down:
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5625

Had his question answered:
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5655

Had his question answered.
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5686

Had his question answered.
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5693

Had his question answered.
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5758

Ridiculing Zetatalk.
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5779

Had his question answered.
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5806

Had his question answered.
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5892

Had his question answered.
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5920

Had his question answered.
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5925

Had his question answered.
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5915

Had his question answered.
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6021

Ridiculing Godlike.
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6048

Had his question answered.
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6099

Had his question answered.
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6088

Had his question answered.
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6135

Questions about pix on Godlike turned into discussion of whether he's a troll or not. I don't blame him for not coming back into the thread.
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6204

Ridiculing Godlike.
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6239

Had his question answered.
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6252

Ridiculing Godlike.
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6251

You know, now that I sit here and read all these, all at once, it sure sounds to me like just an ordinary person trying to fit in on a message board. I don't see a hit-and-run driveby troll at all. I couldn't find a single thread where it seemed to me that he posted a provocative URL and then ran away. With the links to SOHO pix on Godlike--"What is this?" he asked, and the BABB told him.

I think a number of people on this board are reading all his "question" threads through their Suspicious Mrs. Grundy Troll-Spotter lenses. Why not try reading them as though they came from someone who says he's 21 years old, who obviously doesn't know anything about astronomy, but who is curious, and who has some questions and concerns, especially about things like Planet X and the sun exploding, and such-like, someone who is being buffaloed by what's posted on Godlike and Zetatalk, and who is trying to fit in here?

Give the kid a chance, guys, eh? I've just spent the last couple of hours watching entirely too many BABB posters jump all over him, sometimes in the very first post to his threads, sneering and hollering "Troll!" before he's even finished speaking. Whatever his motives for being here may be, I still say "aw, let him alone, he's not hurting anything".
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Old 15-June-2003, 08:33 PM
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what a lovely person you are jigsaw and you deserve a medal for all of that. In all your hunting did you come across any posts to threads that skywatcher had not started but joined in with?
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Old 15-June-2003, 11:30 PM
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Jigsaw, thanks for taking the time to carefully look at skywatcher's record and present it for everyone to consider from a different perspective. Personally, I've leaned toward skywatcher being a harmless troll, but then in this thread he makes a very untroll-like apology which did not convince everybody.

Whether skywatcher is trolling or not, I have not considered his activities to be a big deal because skywatcher is not rude or obnoxious. When I've suggested skywatcher "remain calm" it is as much to lighten the mood of those that are getting irritated with him as it is to skywatcher. I've figured if he's a troll, then he's doing it in a benign way. If he's not a troll, then he just likes to ask questions and watch what happens.

But I hope you can understand why some of us would be suspicious that he is a troll. There was one time when he posted the exact same link in General Astronomy and PX. And while not all of his threads, you listed quite a few threads in which he did not respond even with a simple thanks for having his question answered.

But you're right, given that what skywatcher is doing is pretty harmless whether he is trolling or not, we should probably give him the benefit of the doubt.
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Old 15-June-2003, 11:47 PM
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Jigsaw wrote:

Quote:
I agree with you that the BABB is a very nice MB with a high signal-to-noise ratio, and that for this reason it's not like most of the other boards out there. However, it does have one thing in common with all the other message boards on the Internet--it's open to the public. And short of going to pay-to-post, there isn't much any of us, or the BA, can do about people who register here and then begin posting inanities. As long as they're not off-topic, rude, vulgar, etc., they're not violating anything in the FAQ or the registration agreement.
Yet... I respectfully submit that a highly efficacious, while wholly appropriate, means of "action" against "inane posters" -- and otherwise fringe trolling behavior -- lies squarely within reach of every member of this community! - To Wit: HEED GIRL101'S ADVICE!!!

Please pardon the caps at the end - Seems emotions got the better of me

Best
Sarandon
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Old 15-June-2003, 11:52 PM
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In one form or another, skywatcher has certainly generated a ton of posts on this BB. It amazes me how people here continue to be sucked into his BS, even to the point of debating his motives. Isn't it obvious, we should ignore him.
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Old 16-June-2003, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peace_Rules
In one form or another, skywatcher has certainly generated a ton of posts on this BB. It amazes me how people here continue to be sucked into his BS, even to the point of debating his motives. Isn't it obvious, we should ignore him.
It's a bit like pondering if Nancy is insane or just evil. It doesn't really matter. I'll probably keep looking at any SW post and if there's something interesting to say, I will. But at this point my response probably wont be to explain why some fuzzy blob isn't px since that's been explained a dozen times. I think most of us have to admit, even BA, that post of the UCLA crescent moon flare took a few seconds to understand. It doesn't really matter if he was trolling. And that question about the sun shrinking. It doesn't matter how silly the concept of shrinking is, the NASA pictures referenced were of slightly different size and I learned some things about the camera's orbit that I wouldn't have