Thanks, of course, and now I know.

I don't know what this changes. I just think the Speeding Up Expansion (SUE) couldn't possibly be outwards. Nobody can show me an Outward Expansion that Speeds Up. I would like to get this thread back on Topic.

Well we talked about this earlier. In your scenario, you only allow for a static energy input. If there was increasing energy input (maybe from an energy we haven't fully discovered yet, eg: dark energy? I don't know, it's just an example) you could have an increasing expansion. So stating nobody can show you an outward expansion that speeds up isn't necessarily true. Becasue somebody can't show you something in your restricted parameters doesn't mean they don't exist.

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I was just sitting here contemplating the immortal words of Socrates who said, "I drank what?"

"Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot." --Carl Sagan "Pale Blue Dot"

No, no, the 'energy', or Gravity, increases with proximity to the source.

Now don't go inventing unnecessary forces. Gravity will do fine, in the case of the Cosmos.

That's Ok. I do.We already have that.

Show me an example anywhere. Where else can we find this Speeding Up Expansion?

But Speeding Up expansion does exist - inside every vortex. Just because you don't know this, doesn't make me wrong!

Also, on further reflection the comment I made which you quoted here seems unusally snarky for me and that wasn't the intent, so I apologize (it was early in the morning).

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I was just sitting here contemplating the immortal words of Socrates who said, "I drank what?"

"Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot." --Carl Sagan "Pale Blue Dot"

Again, limiting the allowable bounds of the scenario.

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I was just sitting here contemplating the immortal words of Socrates who said, "I drank what?"

"Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot." --Carl Sagan "Pale Blue Dot"

And that ("a halo") is what in this context? What is your evidence?

Quasars are SMBHs with significant accretion disks, as I said in the post you were responding to.

If you are that unfamiliar with mainstream concepts such as this, I would strongly suggest some time reading and researching the subject.

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I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?

Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

Lex Parsimoniae, Kelfazin. Now please don't go arguing against the Law.

We only have to worry about how history is going to see this. And, of course, the readers. Apology accepted, naturally.

There has been new thinking on these Quasars. It kind of surprised me too. Just go to Wiki and type 'Quasar', something I should have done long ago.

As I say, the news caught me off guard too.

Physician, heal thyself.

Originally Posted by Hornblower 
None of which answers my question. Your idea requires a large-scale overall convergence at the cosmic scale. How do you reconcile that with the actual observations that are clearly pointed out in my previous posts?

Show us, quantitatively, what evidence you have looked at.
That's interesting. You are describing a pressure-driven convergence, such as might be caused by your vacuum cleaner, but citing gravity as a cause in a cosmic counterpart. A gravitational convergence should lead to compression and heating, rather than rarefaction and cooling. The former is well observed in the stuff that is inferred to be accreting onto the event horizons of large black holes.

Where is your evidence that clumping up must be a sign of a vortex?

Very simple. The lack of a spectral Doppler signature that looks like a cosmic-scale vortex, as I repeatedly have stressed in my previous posts. I ask you again, where is that signature?

Up to here, we agree. Let's put that behind us and move on.The above,Now, one of us is wrong. That's for sure. My observations, from all sources, have shown that there is an overall drop in Pressure, happening. Nobody even knows the Cosmos has a Pressure (which is vital to our understanding of the evidence that we both have. Now, I don't mind if you don't know that there is an unbreakable relationship between Expansion - which is nothing more than Boyle's 'Increasing Volume', for Science's sake, and Pressure, but there is and you, Hornblower, wise and sagacious as I know you can't help being - or anybody else can't split them. About Pressure.

I work with Pressure. Ambient, atmospheric... and past 0 psi (pounds per square inch), we talk about inches of mercury - up to thirty, I believe, to express what we call, a 'Vacuum'. In this thread, I would prefer to talk about 'psi' and inches of 'Vacuum', and we can all know what we're talking about. The declinig Pressure of the Cosmos - unless you think it is Compressing, Hornblower? You don't think that, do you? ...(P\)?

Of course not. And so the 'Rising Expansion', Exponential as it is, well documented and beyond dispute, fits in well with my 'Declining Pressure', about which nobody knows anything. ...(E/)?

Sometimes it amuses me to think of this Declining Pressure as a Declining Density (of matter) per cubic unit of Space. I think anyone would agree that the Universe is Losing Density. If you disagree with thjis, Hornblower, I insist you tell me why, and specifically etc.
Well, this Declining Density, if we look forward - I know how hard it is for you, Hornblower. The past is gone, over, dead, muerto... We must learn to look forward. Ok. With me.. Forward into the Declinig Density, to the Time when there will be hardly anything per cubic unit, at all.

Here, in this future stage of Cosmic Evolution, it's a void. It has to be. There's nothing here.... We'll come back. To this void...

Something else the Cosmos is doing is Losing Temperature (T\) or Cooling Down. I have to say Cooling Down, if I just said Cooling, you could ask, Cooling what? Hopefully we can agree on this mainstream conclusion and move on. I know you don't think the Cosmos is Warming Up.

I should also point out, at this Time, that all of this, the above effects, the Loss of Pressure etc... They're alll happening Exponentially (Faster and Faster). Everything is, for some reason, Speeding Up (S/). Together, if we boil it down, the above effects, we get P\E/T\S/.

This pattern, these effects, belong to any and all Gravitating Objects.

If that was all the Cosmos is doing. But it's not. The Cosmos, you must realise, Hornblower, is doing many other things. We both have the same evidence. How can we be, literally, poles apart?

The Cosmos is Gaining Entropy, help me here, it has an Axis - it's Clumping Up.

Unlike you, I realise the last two effects, the Axis, the Clumping Up, indicate that the Cosmos is a Whirlpool - probably shaped a lot like the Whirlpool Galaxy (M51) or our own Milky Way - especially, knowing as I do, that Clumping Up is a Feature of a Vortex. So's an Axis.

But yes, since 'COBE Days', day 1, after the Big Bang, when the Cosmos was a 'smooth, hot soup'... Do I really need to be telling you this. This is all terribly mainstream, isn't it? ... since 'COBE Days', the Cosmos has Clumped Up. And how! Now we have Black Holes of previously 'undreamed of' masses.

Looking forward - I know it's difficult... All together now - Forward into the Future, when all the Clumping Up is at a maximum, and Density is at a Minimum... Wait a minute... Does that seem right to you, Hornblower, that we can have Maximum Clumping, with the Biggest Clumps (SMBHs - Super Massive Black Holes) and Minimum Density? Together?

Absolutely - in the future. Logically. Didn't we just agree on that?

Now, you think that's your Universe, Expanding Outwards, Losing Density, Clumping Up - SMBHs taking over...

But it's not. It's mine. A Whirlpool, in the third and final stage of its evolution, from the early, 'hot warm soup' at the outer edge, to the zone of Black Holes and Minimum Density, at the center... The 'Void' we had to leave behind, before, the void at the center, populated solely by Black Holes - but we went there together, Hornblower, into the Future... It wasn't so tough, I realise how much you love the past - but all we did was extrapollate...

Post#167 tells us there is a low pressure at the center of a Whirlwind. Hope I got that right. It's a partial vacuum - so many inches of mercury... Air exposed to a Vacuum, Expands. This centripetal (towards the center or Inwards) expansion, along with the Clumping Up, Cooling Down, Speeding Up ETC. is modeled by the air entering the nozzle of a vacuum cleaner, or the Cosmos itself.

Now, I can't show this mathematically, because I don't know the mathematical expression for 'Time is Going Backwards'. If anyone out there, or you, Hornblower, can help me out, I will thank you. Publicly.

We both have the same evidence. I get mine largely from Wiki. Where do you get yours?

Now it gets interesting
Ooh, ooh, no, not Pressure, not that psi stuff! It's 'inches of mercury' - Vacuum-driven convergence, please!

It makes all the difference. For a Vacuum, you see, implies a Low Pressure zone, somewhere - maybe at the center of some vortex...

Well, we could substitute the electric motor of the humble vacuum cleaner, on a Cosmic Scale, for a Highly Attractive (well, they are, to me) SMBH.

Now here, you see, it's so important to state 'at what stage, in Cosmic Evolution', we are talking about.

In the last stage of Cosmic Evolution - when the center is finally reached, and we fall into (probably) our seventh Black Hole, then yes. There will be Compression (P/), and just as you have predicted, Hornblower, Compaction (E\) and Heating Up (T/)as well as a Slowing Down and Stopping (S\) - P/E\T/S\ - the same effects shared by any Landing Object.

I agree. This is how you Accrete onto a Black Hole.

My coffe bubbles, when I stir - dissolving salt in a bowl of water - stir and it Clumps Up in the center, on the bottom. That's evidence.

This next is because we can only see a tiny fraction of the Total Universe...
Our vision is rapidly improving. Just right now, we can't see that far.

Coming, coming, Rome wan't built in a day....

Rome wasn't built in a week, the time remaining for this thread.
Ludicrously non sequitur. The alleged necessity of having a vortex as a prerequisite for clumping in general does not follow from the motion of bubbles and/or salt in a spoon-induced swirling of liquid in a cup.

You would be laughed out of a competitive debate or a courtroom if you attempted such an argument.

Did you ever hear of fog forming in still air as it is cooled?

Mostly Sky and Telescope. I will not waste my time on a wild goose chase for your sources. You are the proponent of your ATM idea. Please post links to your sources.

I will continue picking at selected points in this post for the remaining week like a cat playing with a mouse. Or perhaps I am a mouse playing with a cat.

[hiccup]

http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2007/cirx1/

Oops, 'scuse me - happened to be surfin' in the neighborhood. See u around...

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"...wait for the ricochet."

What if they decided to keep it open?

I tried to edit it - the wording is a bit tangled - but they wouldn't let me. A vacuum cleaner takes all ther dust particles from a room and turns them into clumps - easily visible at the view-port on the nozzle.

Where does the Clumping Up happen? There at the vortex of the nozzle.

Here at the nozzle, in this zone of minimum density, paradoxically, can be found the biggest Clumps!

Here at the nozzle, in fact, it's all Clumps, w. nary a particle to be seen. That's one more piece of evidence, your honour, to support my case. How much evidence do you require, Sir?

What if the jury thought I had a case? They might be smart. They might know about Lex Parsimoniae.

No, but it sounds likely. I can see the water vapour condensing out and the fog releasing its moisture.

Your source?
I know them! Not much on Cosmology, but great on observation equipment etc. And some breathtaking photographs.

Lately, I have been trying Q&A at BAUT. I am looking for a True Mathematician. Do you know of any?

Amen!

Aye Aye, Captain!

Or perhaps the 'Cat' is playing w. the mouse.

'Extended x-ray jet from a neutron Star.Artist's Concept... these jets have been seen near black Holes...'

Not really getting it...

Thanks anyway, for the interest. Actually, Thoth', at this time I'm trying to get the Thread back on Topic. I was going to ask you, in all this time, did you ever manage to come up with an Outward Expansion that Sped Up?

Let me know if you did. In the meantime - cheers!

umm, as opposed to ANY sort of "Inward Expansion" - e.g. Speeding Up, Slowing Down, or doing the Hokey Pokey?

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"...wait for the ricochet."