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This is scarily reminiscent of an idea called "conspansion" from the "CTMU"...
I won't get further into it here, though. If interested, ask Mr. Google to help you out. ![]()
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"...wait for the ricochet." Last edited by thothicabob; 17-July-2007 at 10:14 PM.. Reason: clarucidation |
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CTMU - I went there. Wow, talk about complex. No, I'm just looking for some agreement on this terribly basic observation of mine. I mean, everybody knows about this outward expansion for example, if you inflate a baloon - but doesn't it just reach a point where it's hardly expanding any more. I mean, past that point, you're just increasing the pressure, with very little expansion happening. That continues, this lack of expansion, probably right untill the balloon explodes. Can I get some agreement?
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I haven't blown up a balloon lately, but I believe you're right - it's easy to blow up the balloon initially, but at a certain point you start stretching the material of the balloon too much (at which point its tensile strength kicks in). Further expansion beyond that point causes it to fail catastrophically (i.e. explode).
Best way to see for sure is to try blowing up a balloon and see what happens ![]() |
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Good point. Me, I call it a paradox. I say, it's paradoxical, how something can expand inwardly, but the air moving towards that Vacuum-Cleaner wasn't it Losing Pressure? And according to Boyle's Law, isn't that the same Increasing Volume? I mean, is that the Law, or isn't it?
And doesn't 'common sense' tell us that Increasing Volume is simply another way to say Expansion? Definitely, I would call it a paradox, how Inward Expansion can even happen, but my observations have shown me - Time and Time again, that it is, in fact, the reality. |
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Yes, but, according to Wiki, it's not the kind exampled by the sub being crushed from the outside - an implosion, of course, but one of 'fluid dynamics', by one Victor Schauberger, who said a suction from inside causes an implosion, a movement pedicentral, but not straight radially to the center, but as a vortex.
I'm just quoting Wiki, on the subject of 'implosion,' so help me. I wish everybody would go there. Read it for yourself - fluid dynamics... Victor Schauberger - it's highly interesting. Tho' it does say, his work was not generally accepted... So yes, it's called an implosion. Only what's the opposite to 'implosion'? It's 'exploding', isn't it? I know it's semantics, but I still like my 'inward expansion', which I hold to be the opposite of 'outward expansion'. The two things are different, but real, to me. But 'implosion' is fine too - as long as it's from the inside a la Victor Schauberger Last edited by astrocat; 18-July-2007 at 06:22 PM.. Reason: name spelled wrong |
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I think what ur describing also has to do with as you blow up a balloon, the volume increases so it takes more air to expand the radius of the balloon a given distance, but overall, the volume is increasing at the same rate; it's just spread out more, and the expansion appears to be slower (and it is, radially, but - assuming the amount of air you input remains at a constant rate - the volume increase remains about the same).
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"...wait for the ricochet." |
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Vacuum cleaners don't really make a vacuum, they just shift air along with a fan [though I suppose if the fan was fast enough you might get a cavitation effect (like when a boat propeller goes "too fast" in water)].
Although your central vacuum cleaner system will appear to make air speed up, that's a fairly understandable. The cleaner is removing a given volume of air from the room (and sending it to where-ever the filter system is). The air at the nozzle will be moving at whatever speed. The air that comes into the room to replace the shifted air, will come from all over the place. That spreads the given volume of air out over many locations - the speed of air at all those air sources can then be lower. If you completely sealed your room, and just left a vacuum cleaner nozzle sized hole in the wall for air to get in, the air comming in that hole would be moving at the same speed as the air dissappearing down the tube. (Ignoring the "elasticity" (due to compressibility) of the air which will have some effect.) Of course, as the air comming through that hole enters the room, it would "spread out" into the room and go "slower", while air getting to the nozzle would appear to "speed up". I don't think that's any different than looking at a river. At the narrows, the water "speeds up", and when the river widens again, the water "slows down".
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I'm more concerned with the inward kind. It seems to me, right now, that this is a 'desert' of scientific thinking. I mean, everywhere there's a Lowering Pressure there's Increasing Expansion - assuming Temperature and other things aren't factors. This Increasing Expansion is important, I feel. |
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'Cavitation' is right under 'implosion' in Wiki. Quote:
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(Ignoring the "elasticity" (due to compressibility) of the air which will have some effect.) Quote:
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You'd almost expect it to Slow Down at the restriction. To me, it's another (or maybe the same) paradox - that according to Bernoulli, this 'restricted' river should, here, Speed Up. I'm right, aren't I? |
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"...wait for the ricochet." |
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That air is moving as fast as the fan in the vacuum cleaner can make it move. My vacuum cleaner (regular portable thing) has a speed setting slider. That affects the speed of the fan motor; that affects the speed of the air movement; and that affects the amount of cat-hair-sucking ability.
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Reality moves at the speed of light. If the text of this post is blue, it's a "Moderator comment". [ The RULES of the Forum ] [ Forum FAQs ] [ Conspiracy Theory advice ] [ Alternate Theory Advice ] To report a post (even this one) to the moderation team - use the /!\ icon at the top-right of the post. |
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For the rest, astrocat should first read a book on physics, especially the part on gas dynamics etc. It can all be calculated by the simple continuity equation: div(rho v) = 0, the divergence of the product of density and velocity (a vector) for a closed system is zero (i.e. there are no sources of new stuff in the system), where the divergence operator is given by div(A) = dAx/dx + dAy/dy + dAz/dz, and do not forget the chain rule for in the above case A = rho v. And there is nothing "paradoxical" about inward expansion, but it definitely is an "oxymoron".
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Any comments in glorious red are to be considered in ModeratorMode. 善數, 不用籌策 (shàn shù, bù yòng chóu cè) He who is good at counting, uses no counting tools “A good scientist has freed himself of concepts and keeps his mind open to what is” 道德經, 二十七 (dào dé jīng, 27) |
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Now I can see the possibility that astrocat is attempting to buy time by spending a few days going through the motions of building a consensus on a topic about which there is no real controversy, and then co-opting it for pushing a real ATM idea in another thread. I would recommend that we abstain from further participation in this one.
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Any comments in glorious red are to be considered in ModeratorMode. 善數, 不用籌策 (shàn shù, bù yòng chóu cè) He who is good at counting, uses no counting tools “A good scientist has freed himself of concepts and keeps his mind open to what is” 道德經, 二十七 (dào dé jīng, 27) |
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Naturally, at the begining there will be a slowing down of the flow, which gets transported upstream by (shock)waves. After the steady state has set in, th continuity equation demands that in the narrow the flow speeds up, otherwise the river will overflow at the narrow part. And the last part does not really make sense the way it is written, because it seems to imply that you expect it to slow down, but you think that Bernouilli says (dunno why you think that he says that) that it should speed up. You seem to like the term paradox, but that is mainly because you use the wrong physics.
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Any comments in glorious red are to be considered in ModeratorMode. 善數, 不用籌策 (shàn shù, bù yòng chóu cè) He who is good at counting, uses no counting tools “A good scientist has freed himself of concepts and keeps his mind open to what is” 道德經, 二十七 (dào dé jīng, 27) |
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Few things are more difficult to explain than a paradox, but these paradoxes - the kind that arise in Science - must, surely, be pointed out by somebody - even if that person gets chewed out for doing it! |
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For example, if you have a channel through which a given volume of air escapes at a constant rate (let's say we're using a vacuum cleaner for emptying a giant spherical balloon, and let's ignore the other effects for a bit), the apparent diameter of the surface bounding that volume will shrink at an increasing rate as the air is removed, however overall volume of the space will decrease at a constant rate because a larger percentage of the volume at any given time is being removed. This may look like the 'inward expansion' is increasing, but it's only true w/rgds to diameter of the sphere, not it's volume. It's simply the reverse of process of inflating the volume (at a given constant rate). Another sort of 'increased speed' of 'inward expansion' can also be seen with gravity (i.e. things fall towards the center faster and faster the closer they get to the center of mass (until they hit the surface, at any rate) because the force of gravity increases the closer you come). This effect is largely what happens in a supernova when a star's core collapses. So, what you're observing is not really ATM except perhaps in how it's being 'interpreted'. ![]()
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"...wait for the ricochet." |
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